Stats on attack on women by men self identifying as women?

[Bb2019]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking on this board and generally following the mainstream uk press about trans issues including the JK Rowling debate etc.

I've been shocked with the likes of Mermaids and the Tavistock centre prescribing under 18s life changing treatments.

I'm still trying to understand the implications and form an informed opinion on the use of women only places by trans women. I understand it would make many women uncomfortable if it were obvious.

Do we have any statistics or research done on how often women or girls have been attacked in their own spaces by men passing as trans women and or by trans women? I know it happens anecdotally but how much more likely is it to happen? Is it isolated incidents or is the risk much heightened? Perhaps it's not possible to do this type of research though due to a paucity of data?

Thanks!

@midgebabe

But many men have also been the victim or male violence

And unlike women, the stats suggest that transwomen are as likely to be the perpetrator of violence as the victim

Neutral spaces are the only answer, and would happen quicker if people could unite as opposed to being set against one another

I don't think the stats show anything of the sort, but we have discussed that at length earlier in the thread so its probably not worth going over it all again.

The Disability Discrimination Act which required similar modifications to be made for toilets gave businesses ten years from the implementation of the act to become compliant. I think it's pretty clear that placing this kind of requirement on the sectors most likely to be hit by COVID is pretty far from the Government's mind. So even with a hugely successful campaign we'd probably be looking at 15-20 years before these changes could be brought about. So what should happen in the interim?

Perhaps there is an alternative way. Given the growth in the use of spy cameras, and the pandemic, then perhaps we could all agree on some kind of regulation for changing rooms and toilets that instead of seeking to discriminate focus purely on safety. This could include trained staff to check for cameras, floor to ceiling doors, basic standards of hygeine etc. This wouldn't require the same level of modifications to buildings and would probably have broad popular support. Is that something where there could be a united demand?

But many men have also been the victim or male violence

Exactly. A man might get beaten up in the blokes bogs, it doesn't take much to set some men off, even just looking at someone the wrong way. I was on a night bus once (thank fuck I was in a big group) and 3 men set upon a guy for no apparent reason at all, and it all kicked off.

Do we just let any man who is uncomfortable in male areas into the ladies to shield him from men?

The other thing is, we are always told that women have nothing to worry about because there are cubicles in toilets and changing rooms, so why doesn't the same just apply for transwomen in male areas?

Also, we still haven't had a definition of 'transwoman' yet?

As an asian male I have been subject to unprovoked assaults more than a dozen times. I don't expect to use women's facilities. Why are transwomen special?

@ZenZebra

What is a young trans women in a quiet bus station with dodgy men hanging about supposed to do if she needs the toilet?

But if all toilets are made mixed-sex, where do the 30million+ women go to get away from dodgy men?

By your standards aren't toilets already mixed sex? Trans women have been using them for decades. And they aren't full of dodgy men, either here or anywhere else in the world where trans inclusive policies have been introduced. I do understand the fears of what might happen, but it hasn't happened, and shows no sign of happening.

Neither "exceptional circumstances" nor "sparingly applied" are words used in the text of the Equality Act or the Explanatory Notes

No but the word ‘exception’ kind of implies that is what is meant. That’s what the word exception means. It’s the exception as opposed to the rule.

Otherwise what’s the point of calling it an exception?

@Apollo440

As an asian male I have been subject to unprovoked assaults more than a dozen times. I don't expect to use women's facilities. Why are transwomen special?

Because men sexually assault and harass trans women far more frequently than than they do other men.

It’s really important to make trans people safe but unfortunately it shouldn’t be done at the expense of the safety of others.

We keep hearing about inclusivity but if including trans people in certain situations means other people (often extremely vulnerable other people) are excluded it is not ok.

What worries me most is the lack of empathy from TRAs and refusal to acknowledge or discuss the issues. People without narcissistic or psychopathic tendencies tend to think about the impact of their actions and how they will affect others.

What about the damage and distress to victims of sexual abuse? What about those who will be socially excluded? What about rights to privacy and dignity?

Nope, because that would not solve the problem

You are reverting to the idea that the problem is assault , where I think the problem is inclusion
Of women ( for clarity)

I would not feel better if i thought it unlikely that there were no cameras. I get an uncontrolled, physical panic reaction to the presence of males in the wrong place. My body goes on full alert. Unfortunately , transwomen (obviously only the ones I detect , and that doesn't happen often) set off the reaction

It has happened. There is a whole thread on it. Fwiw, I would rather we had clearly mixed sex spaces than segregated spaces where some certain males were freely allowed to access the female spaces.

" Men sexually assault and harass trans women more than other men"
But a lot less than women I bet!

@BewaretheIckabog

It’s really important to make trans people safe but unfortunately it shouldn’t be done at the expense of the safety of others.

We keep hearing about inclusivity but if including trans people in certain situations means other people (often extremely vulnerable other people) are excluded it is not ok.

What worries me most is the lack of empathy from TRAs and refusal to acknowledge or discuss the issues. People without narcissistic or psychopathic tendencies tend to think about the impact of their actions and how they will affect others.

What about the damage and distress to victims of sexual abuse? What about those who will be socially excluded? What about rights to privacy and dignity?

@BewaretheIckabog

What about the damage and distress to victims of sexual abuse? What about those who will be socially excluded? What about rights to privacy and dignity?

But this applies to both trans women and women concerned by trans inclusion surely? And with respect I think there can be a lack of empathy on both sides of this debate. I don't think that a trans women's trauma at being a victim of male violence is somehow 'less' than a non trans women's, or that it should be treated as less important by society.

Nobody should be assaulted and harassed but making women even more vulnerable to male violence is not a solution to male on male violence. Men have to take responsibility for this and seek their own solutions.

@334bu

" Men sexually assault and harass trans women more than other men" But a lot less than women I bet!

I think you would be very surprised. There are certain types of men out there who view trans women as a kind of subclass of women to whom the normal rules of things like consent do not really apply.

Because men sexually assault and harass trans women far more frequently than than they do other men.

Not sure this is the case.

Based on studies I’ve read, in general men are at a higher risk of assault Than women. Trans women, as I recall, fall between men and women in terms of their risk of being assaulted by men.

In any case, Teenage and preteen boys are at an elevated risk of sexual assault compared to other men. Should boys use women’s spaces until they are 18?

Transwomen are also much more likely be the perpetrators of violence than women are.

No but the word ‘exception’ kind of implies that is what is meant. That’s what the word exception means. It’s the exception as opposed to the rule.

Otherwise what’s the point of calling it an exception?

That's statutory writing. Exception is used throughout the Equality Act to denote every specific circumstance where the general rule that discrimination is unlawful doesn't apply.

The word exception refers not to this being a rare event or situation but that under specific circumstances the general rule doesn't apply.

Look at one of the examples:

a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

This is a specific case. No matter however how often it happens, no matter how many women provide this service across the country - whether 10, 10.000 or a million - in every single case that meets the specific circumstances (here condition 7 a and b) - can the sex-based exception be applied and the female service provider lawfully discriminate against males.

@FWRLurker I wouldn't dispute that men are more at risk of violent assault than both women or trans women, but I'm not persuaded that men, or boys, are at the same risk of sexual assault than either trans or non trans women. I'd be interested to read any research on that.

Boys are allowed to stay in most women's refuge, at least until age 14, and older in some places. But older teen boys I suspect would carry a risk in a way that trans women don't appear to based on the miniscule number of assaults committed by trans women in women's spaces. There's also the question about whether boys and teens would want that, and I suspect they wouldn;t despite the elevated risk.

Yes, I thought the stats showed that transwomen were actually safer than men from male violence, although I don't have a link.

The idea that transwomen are being murdered in the UK at high rates has already been widely debunked.

@jj1968

Nobody on this thread has suggested a trans woman’s trauma at male violence is less than any other persons. With respect you are implying things that have not been said.

@BewaretheIckabog

I was talking about the debate generally, not on this thread which I'm grateful has remained respectful.

" Miniscule number of assaults....."

Give us a break. Constantly repeating this doesn't make it true.

Transwomen can legally be excluded from female only spaces because they are human males.
Transwomen do offend against women in female only spaces.
Transwomen pose the same risk to women as other human males.

based on the miniscule number of assaults committed by trans women in women's spaces.

What exact definition of transwomen are you using when you make this statement?

@334bu

" Miniscule number of assaults....."

Give us a break. Constantly repeating this doesn't make it true.

Transwomen can legally be excluded from female only spaces because they are human males.
Transwomen do offend against women in female only spaces.
Transwomen pose the same risk to women as other human males.

I think this is worth repeating. We keep being told 'this never happens' and yet story after story comes out of it happening. These stories seem to be increasing as 'the bandwidth of woman' ever increases, and, as one could easily predict, more chancers start taking advantage of social attitudes and loopholes.

Transwomen are male - they pose the same risk as other males. That doesn't mean that all transwomen are a risk, in the same way that not all men are not a risk. But in order to safeguard women we don't let any males, even males who on an individual level we are sure are safe, into women's spaces.

The word exception refers not to this being a rare event or situation but that under specific circumstances the general rule doesn't apply.

Yes that does make sense. Doesn’t apply? Or doesn’t have to apply?

@ZenZebra

based on the miniscule number of assaults committed by trans women in women's spaces.

What exact definition of transwomen are you using when you make this statement?

I'd be happy to use someone who identified as a trans woman when the attack took place. The chance of being assaulted by a trans women is a women's space is hundreds of millions to one. As someone wittier than me recently pointed out you are statistically as likely to be attacked by a member of Girls Aloud in a women's toilet as you are a trans woman.