Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

[FlamedToACrisp]

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

That's the most spurious argument for prostitution yet.

They are providing a service that arguably prevents a lot of sexually induced crimes. I couldn’t do it so yes they have my admiration the same as everyone else who provides a service.

This is so problematic I don't even know where to start

I've known a few women and girls who have been prostitutes. One with whom I was very friendly when we were in our 20s and 30s, and her friend, worked for an escort agency who were paid a small fee for introduction. One of them was a student and the other had a trainee job which didn't pay a huge salary.

She negotiated her own payment for sex and was specific about what she was prepared to do and not do and the length of time spent with the client. They met in hotels, some wanted to go to dinner or out somewhere before bed. The agency vetted the men as far as they could (many were regulars), and always knew where they were. One agency even supplied taxis to and from.

She and the girl wth whom she shared a house made quite a lot of money, did not catch anything or become pregnant, and they both gave it up when they had achieved the amount of money they wanted. They put it behind them but were quite happy to talk about it back then; some of it they found quite funny, some very routine and others with men who had erection problems or a particular penchant (wanting to listen to her heart through a stethoscope after sex was one). Then there were the men who developed a strong affection and wanted to be the boyfriend. They were also given presents.

I doubt either of them considered it rape. They bought property, had careers, later married and had kids, never looking back. It was a means to an end at the time.

What they did I would consider to be work.

At the other end of the scale are the girls who are trafficked or who work to keep a man with whom they are 'in love', which is a sad and dangerous thing.

@OffThePlanet

Where do you get off calling women nympho, sinner, sluts.
Have you even read the thread? You seem very anxious to take offence. I didn't call women those things. I said that was how I was brought up to think of prostitutes, and how they were generally regarded in my experience. I didn't say my opinions haven't changed since the 1960s/70s! If they hadn't, why would I start a thread to solicit opinions and information?

you missed completely Rosiejaune’s comment that “some women are so vulnerable they feel they have no other option than to do it for five pounds.”
I did not miss rosie's comment. I answered it, explaining that my point was that if consent is given in return for a financial incentive, and if a refusal is acceptable so consent is not coerced, then in my view that does not constitute rape. This would apply in the case of five pounds, too - although I appreciate most non-desperate women wouldn't consider that incentive sufficient.

In your world the men have no part in exploiting women...You live in a world where only men enjoy sex, women are called names if they have sexual desires.
Again, if you had actually read my comments and responses, you would know this does not reflect my opinion.

@winerack19 I certainly am not feeling sorry for you one little bit, I do feel a tad jealous though lol...... if only I had a lovely body I would be in like a shot $600,000 and I would have my mortgage paid off in a month and saving the rest like crazy.

You should respect anyone who is doing nothing to harm others and who is respectful to you, regardless of the work they do OP. If a man is straying to prostitutes it's not because someone is offering the service it is because he is seeking it out.

I don't respect prostitution or the people who engage in either end of it, and I don't see sense in dressing it up by giving it a nicer-sounding name, but I do recognize that most prostitutes are in very difficult situations (often addicted to drugs), and the people buying sex deserve much more disgust than the ones selling it.

And of course I don't judge women who are essentially slaves and forced into prostitution. That's completely different, imo.

@Coyoacan

Sorry FlamedToACrisp but from your post you must be about my age. How come the only opinion you have about prostitutes is what your parents taught you back in the 1960s? That is sixty years ago.

Of course, my opinions have changed over the years, on this and many other topics.

Really my original memories of other people discussing prostitutes come from the 70s, (I was only 9 when the 60s ended), and on reflection not so much from my parents, as they didn't talk much about sex and that sort of thing, probably much more from teenage schoolfriends.

I was interested in the way views on prostitution had changed FROM that attitude TO the prevailing view of sex workers - what had caused the change etc. and I just wanted to discuss it.

This has been taken to be some kind of attack on sex workers, as if I'm the only person in the world ever to have considered prostitutes to be anything but tragic victims of circumstances. Possibly this is the case for younger MNers in their woke social groups, but I can assure you, loads of people disapproved of sex workers in the 1970s - not just me. They also disapproved of same-sex and interracial relationships, children being born outside marriage and couples living together. Gradually society changed its views and all those things also became acceptable.

I think it is only natural to start by believing our parents' opinions are correct, and then gradually test and challenge whether we really agree with them. My father also thought that miners striking to keep the pits open were aggressive scum who deserved to lose their jobs, that God existed and that Ford cars were only driven by flashy, common people. Eventually I realised he was wrong, and changed my opinion on those subjects, as I have done about prostitution.

I find the suggestion we men are incapable of moral agency mildly offensive. We are responsible for our actions, and the consequences of those actions. The idea that sex workers/ prostitutes or whatever term we’re landing on entice us into exploiting them or abusing them has the moral judgement in the entirely wrong place imo.

@Pixxie7

They are providing a service that arguably prevents a lot of sexually induced crimes. I couldn’t do it so yes they have my admiration the same as everyone else who provides a service.

It doesn't. In areas designated by some local authorities as prostitution 'zones', it means that any other women and girls are considered fair play for street harassment and abuse.

As for preventing sexually motivated crime: I presume you don't think that women working in prostitution are ever raped and murdered? Or don't they count?

And as other posters have pointed out, it breeds a sense of entitlement to all women's bodies.

OP you said you were brought up to regard them as...nympho sinful sluts...but “now I am supposed to feel they’re just women (or men).” Well what is it OP what you were taught or what you are supposed to feel? It’s 2020 and you still don’t know that it’s offensive to call women derogatory names just because they have sex.

You said “so the joke goes we have established what I am.” Missing the point entirely that many women don’t get a choice, but for you it’s just a joke.

Your comments do reflect your opinion. Also don’t forget OP the 70s is now nearly 50 years ago, if you had changed your opinion you wouldn’t have to ask.

Hi @FlamedToACrisp have you read about the nordic model? I recommend having a look because it was putting into words what I always thought should be.

Men should be penalised, not the prostitute.
I believe that consent cannot and should not be bought.

I don't think you should respect sex workers nor the people (mostly men) who partake.

Obviously you can respect the individual, but you don't need to respect their actions.

Personally it disgusts me (doesn't matter what sex the sex workers are) and I would never want it as a "profession" for my children.

That's the current hot topic within feminism regarding prostitution. "They don't deserve respect" doesn't come into it. They're humans, most likely a great many of them are trafficked slaves. Of course they deserve respect

Haven't read the whole thread but the weasely worded "sex worker" term includes pimps, madams, brothel keepers - the "management" as it were- the ones taking a cut without doing the "work"

They no more deserve respect than the punters. I also reserve the right to judge the actual "workers" when they are part of the happy hooker brigade. Promoting prostitution as a legitimate career choice is a revolting idea which damages all women and deserves no respect.

You seem quite naive. "getting paid for what women often give away for free" is a common term (or along those lines) when referring to escorting/getting paid for sexual favours. Baffled that you've never come acros it

I assume the poster you are referring to had heard the expression and it was the truth of it she was questioning.

It's a silly, trite and hackneyed comment which gets trotted out by apologists for prostitution along with the equally risible "prostitution is the oldest profession"

It completely ignores of course that women don't "give sex away for free". Whether sex is part of a long term relationship or an enthusiastic shag with a pretty stranger picked up that night , it's a mutual affair- neither party is "giving away"

It also makes the ridiculous assumption that anyone into casual, mutually consenting sex won't care who it is with.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful

Your issue is with whomever brought you up like that.

Well said!

I was a prostitute for years and every female I know that does that ‘job’, including me, loathe the term prostitute which is why we say escorts or sex workers, unless you’ve done the job yourself then you won’t be able to understand why.

Also we don’t encourage men to cheat at all, men cheat regardless and do you honestly think if sex workers all stopped doing that job then men would just stop cheating?! No they would not, they would start cheating with women they met at work, in a pub etc etc and then there is a chance of real feelings developing which then blows up
Into an affair.

If I was married and my hubby paid for sex behind my back then I would rather he did that that met a woman the normal way, paying for sex is simply a transaction with no emotions or feelings involved.

In 2011 I worked for an escort agency that got raided by the police and whilst us sex workers weren’t doing anything illegal then the people that ran the agency were because they were making money from immoral earnings because how can someone else make cash off of women sleeping with men, it’s exploitative and safety for the women isn’t on the agencies radar, and that’s why police hate these places, plus agency were taking 40% of our hourly rate.

What the police woman said was really interesting and it was this “sex workers help some marriages because if a man can relieve himself and be less stressed then domestic violence isn’t as prevalent in the lives of marriages where DV happens”, and she will know more than anyone here what she is taking about.

We didn’t go and tout our business, men came to us and I swear to god, if cheating men couldn’t get a hooker to have sex with then they would find somebody so please don’t blame it on us! Men are men.

Plus no hooker is a nyphmo, that’s a total myth and usually spouted by men that pay, they all deluded themselves into thinking we all love sex and tbh, all long term sex workers I know loathe sex and it’s all because of doing it for a living.

Also a slut/slag doesn’t charge for sex, she just does it! More women today are sex workers than ever before, if the country didn’t have such shitty wages then maybe we would all find a real job.

Don’t judge what you have no clue about.

I have a friend who used to sell sex to feed her drug habit. She doesn’t enjoy sex, though she is sometimes tempted by the money she could earn, as her current job is tough. Her sister still does it.

Presumably as she ages, there would be fewer people willing to pay. So as a job, it’s presumably only “empowering” in the same short-term sense that using your youthful beauty to get stuff is “empowering”.

At this point in time I wouldn’t care if I never had penetrative sex ever again, that’s now much I loathe it, and I don’t want a partner until I feel better within myself, right now at this point in my life I am so unhappy and it’s years of sex work that has done this, and you’ve guessed it, I fucking hate men and I don’t think that will ever change.

Np aging women still make plenty, I know a 60 year old that still works in sex and has done for 40 years on and off, she was the busiest out of all of us! She looks 45 (all the sex must keep her young and she’s had zero work done) and has a figure of a 21 year old so that crap that the older you get the work diminishes, this answers you @AnyOldPrion

I was a prostitute for years and every female I know that does that ‘job’, including me, loathe the term prostitute which is why we say escorts or sex workers, unless you’ve done the job yourself then you won’t be able to understand why

Dictionary definition of prostitute a person, in particular a woman, who engages in sexual activity for payment

That's what you did. I see no reason at all to not use the word prostitute. If you don't like being a person who engages in sexual activity for payment perhaps find a different line of work.

Is there any other (genuine) job where the "workers" require other people to prettify the job description.

Sarah Pascoe's podcast 'Sex, Power, Money' is a great listen and may help you see all sides

Plus most sex workers that are heavily into drugs work on the streets as if they look too drugs worn then agencies and saunas won’t employ them.

I had addictions myself but it’s not obvious on my face, my teeth aren’t a nice colour due to smoking heroin but I whiten them and you can’t tell I’ve been an addict, my weight is normal too and I get spray tans so look nothing like an ex addict of 11 years.

I got into prostitution before I got into heroin, I was a young single mum desperate for money and that was my descent into sex work!