Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

[FlamedToACrisp]

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

@MarkRuffaloCrumble the notion that women’s consent is a commodity that can be bought

Yes, this is the key question. Most of us do things we don't really want to do in return for money. Because we're used to the idea that the use of someone's body to do labour for an employer has a price, it's tempting to think that paying someone to use their body to do other things is fine. We pay a masseur to run their hands over our body to give us pleasure. How is payment for sexual consent different from this, would you say?

I'll be honest: for five million pounds, I would be willing to have sex with pretty much anyone. (So, as the old joke goes, we've established what I am, and now we're just haggling on price.)

Winerack, I don't have a problem with life choices and success in any field. What i do have a problem with is those who fall under the radar being trafficked and used in pop up brothels and the people who pimp them using the umbrella of sites which support prostitution. To me they are being exploited not just by pimps but their marketplace is supported by people like you who do have a choice

Oh, and I obviously wouldn't judge winerack as a person- I'm really pleased that she made all that money (lend us a tenner?), but that isn't the reality for most women- even at the "high end"- because many of them end up with complex PTSD, being raped and/or beaten, ripped off, unable to view even sex in their personal lives as non-transactional, risking being criminalised etc etc. It's really not a life to envy. It's hardly even a choice under some circumstances.

Oh btw i was a former sex worker so I know what I’m talking about. 10 years!

I actually don’t care if you don’t respect sex workers. Who cares. You can have your opinion.

However don’t be sad and let it eat you up. You are posting about it on mumsnet - what’s rattled your cage?

I have respect for prostitutes the same as anyone else. I don't respect the opinion that it is a valid career choice, not when women and girls are still being trafficked in huge numbers, or being forced into it through desperation.

flamed I think the difference is with prostitution is that the sex worker is the product being bought rather than the provider of a service. It's objectifying. And that has a knock on effect in how the men that use her see women as a class.

@Worriedtonightagain

Oh btw i was a former sex worker so I know what I’m talking about. 10 years!

Sorry Worried but I can't let this one go. You only know what you are talking about from your own perspective

Here’s an article about the city I live in, and I can vouch for its veracity through voluntary night work I used to do with women working on the streets.

Men get trafficked as well to work on farms in the U.K.

Yes, and for other things, like tending illegal drug-growing, but this is the Feminism section, and we centre women in our discussions, as you might expect.

@BitOfFun

Here’s an article about the city I live in, and I can vouch for its veracity through voluntary night work I used to do with women working on the streets.

I have some experience in this field also. I know some women choose this path and make a success of it in monetary terms. The trouble is how do you know? And you never really do.

Isn't this feminism chat? Feel free to start a thread on men being trafficked to work on farms. It's irrelevant to this thread though.

I guess that we don't know- it's not like anybody lists it in the Census. I could be wrong, mind.

I've done enough counselling though to know that, despite the the Happy Hooker narrative, some women can end up very damaged, even if their hourly rate make a plumber look cheap.

I think the difference is with prostitution is that the sex worker is the product being bought rather than the provider of a service.

the sex workers by choice are very good at detaching their mind from their body, so the body is the object sold here, but not the person as they see it. Of course this can be naive, and the psychological effects can show later on, not in everyone possibly (like wine). But you ar spot on about sex workers playing into women being objectified as a class. But only because that's the ingrained attitude may men have - though still, it doesnt help changing it.

[quote FlamedToACrisp]@MarkRuffaloCrumble the notion that women’s consent is a commodity that can be bought

Yes, this is the key question. Most of us do things we don't really want to do in return for money. Because we're used to the idea that the use of someone's body to do labour for an employer has a price, it's tempting to think that paying someone to use their body to do other things is fine. We pay a masseur to run their hands over our body to give us pleasure. How is payment for sexual consent different from this, would you say?

I'll be honest: for five million pounds, I would be willing to have sex with pretty much anyone. (So, as the old joke goes, we've established what I am, and now we're just haggling on price.)[/quote]
But you know nobody would pay five million pounds to have sex with you, so you'll never have to go through with it, so it is a safe flippant thing to say that you'll never have to deliver on.

Whereas some women are so vulnerable they feel they have no other option than to do it for five pounds.

Yes rosie but the point I was making (despite the flippancy) is that if offered five million, I would consider that enough of an incentive to give my consent. I would not feel that he was paying that money to rape me. I'd say it's only rape if 'no' is not acceptable, not because my 'yes' was given for financial reasons.

Would you sell a kidney? Lots of people do. Well, poor people.

OP you are not even at the table, more left standing in the 1950s. Where do you get off calling women nympho, sinner, sluts. In your world the men have no part in exploiting women.

Saying you “would have sex for 5 million...So as the joke goes we have established what I am.” Honestly that is a stupid comment and you missed completely Rosiejaune’s comment that “some women are so vulnerable they feel they have no other option than to do it for five pounds.”

You live in a world where only men enjoy sex, women are called names if they have sexual desires.

@MotherOfGreyhound

Your parents encouraged you to view prostituted women as sinful, and liberal feminism says you should see them as empowered. Personally, I think both of these approaches are wrong. I also think it is interesting that neither of these views has anything to say about the men who pay for sex. Why is that, do you suppose?

This is all of it in a nutshell somehow

It's part of normalising the behaviour of the men who are their customers, removing the stigma of paying to use a woman's body.

It used to be seen as shameful, something you wouldn't like to see reported in the paper. Sadly but very predictably, the shame element was extended more to the women and girls themselves, this world being what it is.

The only winners here are the men.

Erm.

I think MN has some interesting people posting lately.

'
Yes, this is the key question. Most of us do things we don't really want to do in return for money. Because we're used to the idea that the use of someone's body to do labour for an employer has a price, it's tempting to think that paying someone to use their body to do other things is fine. We pay a masseur to run their hands over our body to give us pleasure. How is payment for sexual consent different from this, would you say?'

Weeellll to give a real life example. My friend who came from an abusive family had sex with 2 men when she was 15 for a small amount of weed.

Can you see any differences there than giving a backrub, whether voluntarily or for a few quid?

Sorry FlamedToACrisp but from your post you must be about my age. How come the only opinion you have about prostitutes is what your parents taught you back in the 1960s? That is sixty years ago.

They are providing a service that arguably prevents a lot of sexually induced crimes. I couldn’t do it so yes they have my admiration the same as everyone else who provides a service.

And the alternative is... to disrespect them?

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