Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

[FlamedToACrisp]

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

@Itisbetter sleeping with a hooker for money is not a crime much less a sexually motivated crime, because in the UK paying for sex, except for on the streets, is legal so where is the crime?

@Inappropriatefemale I don’t want to criticise you, or contradict your experiences, but you have been exposed to the worst of men and not the best. There are men out there who value fidelity and monogamy, and you are hardly like to have run across many whilst you were working.

I entirely understand you still have healing to do, but don’t let that fact lead you to conclude you you have any sort of lesser value on account of your history. If you’d prefer an open relationship fine, more power to you, but you don’t have to tolerate a man who would look elsewhere for sex if that’s not what you truly want.

[quote Dervel]@DidoLamenting yes but Belle Du Jour funded her high flying academic career through her sex work. I don’t agree with her normalising sex work, but I have more sympathy for her position as to hey where she has gotten has been stacked against her relative to men because she is a woman.

On the respect front, consider Andrea Dworkin, do we not respect her because she was a prostitute briefly? And suffered brutality and abuse to go along with it, then went on the become a fierce advocate for women’s rights? all because her actions “normalised” the commercialised the commodification of women’s bodies? I’m sorry but I can’t quite get where you are with it.[/quote]
I'm not particularly interested in Andrea Dworkin but as far as I know Dworkin was in the "desperate straits" territory not the "I choose to do this because I'm making so much money and any one who criticises this is jealous/a prude/ a swerf/ it's just a job like any other/ I'm providing a valuable service" territory.

I don’t agree with her normalising sex work, but I have more sympathy for her position as to hey where she has gotten has been stacked against her relative to men because she is a woman

Sorry but no, just no. The vast majority of women in academia do not become nor have any need to become prostitutes to fund their Phds. I simply do not believe that any woman with the ability and education to get that far into academia finds the odds so stacked against her that that is the only option.

Well empirically 75% of professorships are posts held by men, so the is a blatant problem somewhere.

@Dervel thanks for your last comment to me, you are exactly correct in that I have been exposed to the worst of men, and so it’s no wonder that I now categorise them as all the same.

Of course when I do eventually get married (it’s something I am seriously considering now that I’m pushing 40) then there is no way in hell that I’ll be happy with my man having sex with another woman, I’m a jealous person with my relationship as it is and that would send me over the edge, however over the years then the immense jealous thoughts of your man desiring another woman, diminishes so I think when I got to that point, and was no doubt bored of him sexually too, then I wouldn’t hesitate to see if he wanted to try booking a professional to ‘spice it up’, this wouldn’t be in the first 3-5 years but after that then things change, familiarity breeds contempt in one way or the other.

...but I am not married and nor have I been so really, how the hell do I know what I would be okay or not okay with?! I don’t and it’s all speculation.

@Dervel

Well empirically 75% of professorships are posts held by men, so the is a blatant problem somewhere.

The conclusion that female academics need to become prostitutes to succeed does not follow from that.

@Inappropriatefemale I think that depends on you, the man you find and the fundamental quality of the relationship. I don’t think the tendency towards jealously would diminish if you found someone you really clicked with. In fact I could see it increasing.

Also don’t set the bar so low, obviously you
have had your experiences and I don’t begrudge your attitude to men one iota. However if you go into dating with such a low bar you’ll end up accepting far less than you deserve. Also do you really want to end up with a bloke who is capable of provoking the sort of emotional responses in women that you experienced?

This sort of goes to the heart of respecting women who have been where you are. It’s a major false equivalence to assume just because you have been a sex worker you would have to accept dating men who would be willing to pay for sex.

This may be a case of me crossing a line here, and if so I apologise, but I suspect you have compromised boundaries with regards to men, as too many men have used financial incentives to bypass them. Marriages or indeed all relationships don’t have to follow a cookie cutter template, you are entirely at liberty to define for yourself where your boundaries are, and attract into your life (when you are ready of course!), someone who meets those standards. Also you are also completely free to shift those standards as the relationship advances through negotiation with your partner of course!

For right now, and perhaps this is a worse problem than having a dim view of men, is the effect of all this has had on your self esteem. It’s probably left you feeling compromised in terms of value, and whilst I’m sure intellectually aware you are worthwhile person, being emotionally vulnerable may prove a challenge. Which is one of the reasons you are protecting yourself now.

Men love and are attracted to women for many reasons aside from sex, though yes it is a powerful motivator but we live in a world of men who haven’t sought to integrate their sexuality with their emotional/ mental nature. It might be worth contemplating that you have a lot more to offer a man than just sex, there will be a tonne of people attracted to the totality of who you are, quirks, virtues, flaws and all, all you have to do is to whittle down from that number the subset you are actually attracted to, and filter out as best you can the unsuitable ones.

@DidoLamenting that’s a straw man of my position I never claimed that. All I did in fact claim is that given the limited number of places for women (especially at the higher levels of academia), and given how expensive higher education is there are additional pressures on women relative to men, and that pressure may lead some women to sex work. Certainly not something as asinine as all female professors had to be sex workers.

There is an underbelly of society which the MN dwellers of the high towers don't believe exist.
It is pretty much guaranteed that at least one of you commenting has a husband who uses prostitutes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I have respect for any human no matter how they maintain their living once it's not through crime. Prostitution is no longer a crime I believe.

Prostitution has negative connotations - as if you're putting yourself forward. Sex work is a more palatable term to me.

Twice I've considered it in dire straits, but the opportunities never availed themselves while I was considering it.

I felt that I couldn't look myself straight in the mirror if I did prostitute myself. I too grew up with the wilful detestation of the plague of the prostitute.

I was once standing outside a corner shop waiting for my DP to come out, dressed pretty much in my pjs and and coat and a kerb crawler asked me if I was working. When DP came out, I told him and how he didn't jump into the car and throttle the guy I don't know (he did try).

I don't think it's looks/age anything. I couldn't have looked any less sexy and I ain't no looker either. Some cunts will get up on a hole in the wall. Maybe he thought I'd be cheap lol.

Men are aresholes and I think it's from the way they're reared half the time. I don't know how many threads I've read on here about letting little boys play with their penis because it's natural. No rearing on them whatsoever. If your Mammy won't tell you that it's wrong, who else will?

Inappropriatefemale you are getting ahead of yourself a bit and due to the nature of your previous work have an understandably shit view of men.

You're already thinking about what boundaries you would waive for a future as yet imaginary husband. Interesting you say husband rather than boyfriend or partner.

Don't start giving up stuff before you've even met this bloke. And tbh men are really not the be all and end all. Single women are happier than married ones. Society says women are only 'complete' with a man and kids but that's bollocks tbh.

Take some time, enjoy your friends and your freedom. Getting with some bloke when you already have the expectation he will tire of you sexually is not a good place to start a relationship.

Enjoy yourself free of men. Why do you need one? And see what happens. Maybe you'll meet someone maybe you won't. But they are not all arseholes, by a long chalk.

Sorry if that sounds patronising. But you're putting yourself in a shit relationship before you've even met someone. That's not good, right?

It's always informative to take a step back and look at a particular industry. Like the industry for sex work.

Who is it who makes the money in it? Who is on top of the hierarchy? Are pimps really just managers? Why are the customers almost completely male while the vast majority of workers are female? Should we think about that in judging what sex work means for feminism?

And why is it that it is most often men who call each other whores and so on as a slur online? It's not just some prudish feminist women who have problems with sex work, it seems to me (which is what the sex-work-positive feminists seem to argue).

Who is it that makes the money? Certainly not the people who are trafficked into it.

I think the reason the vast majority of customers are male is obvious.

I'd say it's women who are typically the most vocal when it comes to slut shaming but maybe I don't hang around enough men.

I now actually do know my self worth and one bastard taught me this - back in August last year I had a fling with a man that I went to High School with, we hadn’t seen one another since the year 2000 so we had an amazing time reminiscing about the old days, he had a girlfriend and I am ashamed to say that didn’t stop me sleeping with him, he obviously painted a very unhappy relationship (she since found out about me and she still with him!) and I ended up falling for him...you can guess how the rest goes..I got hurt but he tried to meet up with me again for sex and as I was in love with them then I really wanted to meet him, but I realised then and there I was worth more than a mans bit on the side.

I truly believe that fate made us meet so that I could learn a valuable lesson; that I’m worth so much more than just being a mans sex toy, I’m kind, funny, a good pal, understanding, open minded, approachable and witty, and any man would be lucky to have me, and this is the first time at age 39 that I’ve finally realised my own self worth and I took back my power when I said no to meeting that guy, he couldn’t believe it that I would knock him back! What a rush I got just from doing that.

My standards are now far higher and I’m not wanting a relationship again until I’m 110% happy in me, who you go out with reflects about how you feel about yourself and since my first serious boyfriend at age 18 up until now, then clearly I’ve thought nothing of myself and that’s a horrible thing to come to terms with.

The only positive thing prostitution did for me, except for the money it made me, was give me body confidence, before being a hooker I was embarrassed about my cellulite, my small boobs, the fact I’m not toned etc etc and now, I happily take off my clothes and feel really confident in my body, it’s my inner being that I’m so happy about.

Thanks for all your lovely comments about me starting to realise I’m worth so much more, and thanks to L, the guy who used me for sex last year and to N, his partner, I feel sorry for you staying with him and I’m sorry I slept with him knowing full well you were with him.

It should never be OK but it is the men who want this 'service' that we should be condemning.

I don't think respect is what prostitutes are after ( nor should they). I don't say that because I suggest it's degrading either.
Respect of rights is likely what many mean and yet again, can you respect someone's rights?
There is no reason to respect anyone's rights.
Now, acknowledging their rights is what I'd choose to replace the question.

Respecting somebody is not a mandatory requirement per se. Disrespecting somebody is frowned upon. Disrespect has long gone out the window - replaced by 'causing offence'.

The arguments for and against prostitution are many.

Personally, I prefer it to be given the green light.
As with many debates, myths often stick hard such as married men being the main punters when over the years, many young single male punters are growing in number.

People should be given the right to choose.
There will be an argument to be had around policing the violence and associated downsides but if you allow and create a system which lessens the harm, you create a safer environment.

Street prostitution should be totally eradicated and properties registered, licenced and checked.

There are many who are thankful for prostitution and if the mindset which disgraces its existence was addressed it would help.

Zombie thread alert

I received an email about a Home Office survey yesterday - that was why I posted my response.

I do believe prostitution will be given the go ahead.
To the disappointment of some.

What do you mean by 'prostitution will be given to go ahead'?

It's already legal in England and Wales.

There are almost 4x as many people currently enslaved today than were shipped out of Africa over the 400 years of the transatlantic slave trade.

Many of these people are sex slaves who were promised 'a better life' before having their passports taken and forcibly injected with drugs to foster addiction (which would then be used to control them).

Why wouldn't you treat these people with some respect?

You can have some respect or lack of condemnation for prostitutes whilst condemning the men who use them, for certain. Recognising that it is never the first, second or even third choice of work for almost all of them.

Winerack, I feel sorry for you too.
And I also judge you and everyone who thinks it's okay for men to buy women.