Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

[FlamedToACrisp]

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

I think prostitutes should be respected the same as anyone else.

Why don't people talk about the men who buy women more. It's starting to be seen as almost normal for men to buy a woman's body. Years ago it was seen as shameful but not so much these days.

A few years ago when trying to keep away from my sexually abusive asshole of an ex who forced me to have sex with him every night (later found out he was using prostitutes too). I worked night shifts in a supermarket. I was the only woman working overnight on a team of 8 of us. Most of the guys where young and openly talked about paying for prostitutes one even talking about how he booked one abroad and when she was in the room all his friends came in to "have a go" too. They were disgusting and just saw it as completely normal. They also couldn't understand why the teenage day staff weren't interested in them. I spent most nights working with my headphones in so I didn't have to listen to them. There was one old man working too who just didn't talk to anyone so no idea what his views were. Before anyone asks it wasn't a 24 hour store so we didn't have customers in.

Just before I left there due to not coping with nights and daydreamed about crashing into trees on my way to or from work to get me away from the men I worked with and lived with. We were told a new woman was starting and so I had a whole night of them discussing how they hoped this one was young and good looking not another over 30s mum. (I was 30 at the time).

I never met the new woman as we were on different shifts but she was another disappointment apparently.

So getting back to my point why doesn't society talk about these types of men. It's always on the women selling the service not the men buying it who are stigmatised.

This recent post on Twitter feels appropriate. Even those people/institutions/publications that claim to respect sex workers don't really respect them that much do they? Or at least not as much as men's feelings/needs.

Sex is not a human right. Paying a woman (or a man) to let you fuck them is just grim.

^ what NiceGerbil said 1000%

Prostitution or whatever we call it should never be OK.

Can we look at why? I’m not entirely disagreeing. I’m not 100% sure what I think about it.

If there is no abuse or coercion or trafficking, why logically is it wrong? People work in shops, cleaners, (real) massage providers, hairdressers warehouses, all using their bodies one way or another to provide a service. If a woman (or man) wants to provide sex for money why is that wrong?

Taking the assumption that no one could possibly freely choose to do it out of this, because it is already a value laden assumption (based on a belief you have that no one could possibly want to ie it’s circular) why is it wrong for an adult to sell sex?

Or are we saying that only a person with no self esteem or who is damaged in some way could do something like that because sex is normally an intimate thing. But how do we know that is all true and this attitude towards sex is the ‘correct’ one?

@Fieldofgreycorn would you be ok with your daughter choosing prostitution as a valid work choice? Why? Why not?

@Fieldofgreycorn

Or are we saying that only a person with no self esteem or who is damaged in some way could do something like that because sex is normally an intimate thing. But how do we know that is all true and this attitude towards sex is the ‘correct’ one?

We know that many women who do sex work have mental health problems and are more likely to have been victims of sexual abuse from studies that have asked them. A study of sex workers in Delhi found the following: "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), low selfesteem, attempts at committing suicide, selfdestructiveness are frequent psychological problems found amongst women of this group".

This is an eye opener: www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-sex-worker-myth/amp

[quote ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble]@Fieldofgreycorn would you be ok with your daughter choosing prostitution as a valid work choice? Why? Why not?[/quote]
No I wouldn’t. I’ve already indicated as much up thread.

This is what I’m struggling with. I’m questioning if I have my own prejudices and beliefs about what sex is and should be. And whether it’s possible or valid for someone else to truly think about It differently in terms of their own personal boundaries etc.

That's one of the hypocrisies that always come up in discussions about prostitution.

It's a valid choice...as long as it's someone else's daughter,mother,sister etc.

I knew a family where dad was a pimp and mum was a prostitute. Son became a pimp and 2 daughters became prostitutes. Not main stream perhaps but presumably the parents were happy with the choices.

I've also known a mum and step dad prostituting teenage daughter, including demonstrating for her what was expected.

@ancientgran

I knew a family where dad was a pimp and mum was a prostitute. Son became a pimp and 2 daughters became prostitutes. Not main stream perhaps but presumably the parents were happy with the choices.

I've also known a mum and step dad prostituting teenage daughter, including demonstrating for her what was expected.

And you don't see anything wrong and dysfunctional with that?

@ancientgran

I knew a family where dad was a pimp and mum was a prostitute. Son became a pimp and 2 daughters became prostitutes. Not main stream perhaps but presumably the parents were happy with the choices.

I've also known a mum and step dad prostituting teenage daughter, including demonstrating for her what was expected.

Sorry, what!?

Is this meant to show that a bloke pimping out his female relatives / family is a okay because...?!?
And you agree with this?

😳🤯

@ancientgran

I knew a family where dad was a pimp and mum was a prostitute. Son became a pimp and 2 daughters became prostitutes. Not main stream perhaps but presumably the parents were happy with the choices.

I've also known a mum and step dad prostituting teenage daughter, including demonstrating for her what was expected.

You did presumably inform social services of the prolonged sexual abuse of a teenage girl.

Nothing made me work in prostitution except maybe greed

The only person I was hurting being a hooker was me

Your actions do not exist in a vacuum. You were helping prop up the idea that it's fine for people to be bought and used for commercial sex.

You and your punters harm society in general because you give validation to that attitude . As long as prostitution is seen as natural, inevitable, just another or even desirable (e.g the offensive rubbish which usually gets thrown in in these discussions about helping men with disabilities or preventing rape) will never be equal or safe.

It's a term I don't like but women who actively collude with the "sex industry" when there are other choices are the real handmaidens.

Obviously women, girls, men and boys who are trafficked are not acting as "handmaiden" but the ones who have a choice - they are handmaidens.

Obviously women, girls, men and boys who are trafficked are not acting as "handmaiden" but the ones who have a choice - they are handmaidens.

Even worse, are the ones who wouldn't touch the "profession" with someone else's barge pole, but shout loudly about how acceptable , admirable and empowering it is.

Give it a rest. Attacking individuals who are sharing their stories and thoughts is not productive at this point.

Focus needs to be on the men that drive this trade and how and why society focuses on the women, and sees it as an it inevitability etc. Also the drive to normalise paying for sex is really worrying, how is it that people who see themselves as feminists are at the front cheerleading this.

Why don't people talk about the men who buy women more. It's starting to be seen as almost normal for men to buy a woman's body. Years ago it was seen as shameful but not so much these days

We do talk about the men on here. Most posters view them with utter contempt- quite rightly so. In these discussions someone who is /was a prostitute will usually pop up to say how lovely the punters are, how respectful they are and we have got it all wrong. This isn't borne out by what punters say themselves on punter review sites/ research.

What more do you want to be said about the punters?

I agree that it's starting to be seen as normal and weasel words like "sex industry" assist in that.

Making prostitution acceptable damages society- not just the individuals.

Because they're human beings and all human beings deserve to be respected and not looked down upon.

Female sexuality has been demonised where the johns male sexuality was not. If the customer is married or otherwise taken then it is his fault he has cheated in his marriage not the service provider.

To see sex workers as 'seducing' married men infantilises men and puts the blame for their choices once again on a woman.

@NiceGerbil

Give it a rest. Attacking individuals who are sharing their stories and thoughts is not productive at this point.

Focus needs to be on the men that drive this trade and how and why society focuses on the women, and sees it as an it inevitability etc. Also the drive to normalise paying for sex is really worrying, how is it that people who see themselves as feminists are at the front cheerleading this.

You cannot focus on the buyers whilst excluding the willing sellers. The drive to normalise prostitution does not come only from the punters. Turning a blind eye to women who collude in the "sex industry" is not productive either.

Have you heard of Laura Lee? She was a prostitute who posted regularly on here attempting to normalise what she did.

To see sex workers as 'seducing' married men infantilises men and puts the blame for their choices once again on a woman

It's clearly nonsense to blame a prostitute because her punter is cheating on his wife.

how is it that people who see themselves as feminists are at the front cheerleading this.

Internalised mysoginy and myths.. like the happy prostitute, men have needs, it keeps us "safe" from the men and a conscious or unconscious belief that prostitutes are disposable.

It's easier to sleep at night if you think about it all as happy,fluffy, rainbow clouds, full of choice and money and options rather than the massive majority of children and women who are trafficked, who are vulnerable, victims of abuse, substance users,homeless etc.

A 15 yo girl was working for an agency. Apparently she looked older and managed to trick the agency. The whole article focuses on her lying and how much money she made and how much more she could've made.
Not one comment on the punters that paid for sex with a child!
15 FFS!

Is that still ok? She made a choice. She wasn't on the streets. She worked for an "agency".

Still a valid choice? A valid job?

There was a scandal a few years ago in Scotland if I remember correctly of 14/15 yo girls being prostituted on the street. The police knew. The punters knew. But what can you do? Shrug you shoulders,move on,nothing to see here...

She managed to trick the agency... Their checks can't exactly have been thorough.

And 15 yo is a lot younger than 18.

No questions as to what led the 15 yo into doing this?

@NiceGerbil

She managed to trick the agency... Their checks can't exactly have been thorough.

And 15 yo is a lot younger than 18.

No questions as to what led the 15 yo into doing this?

Nope, not until the end until they quote someone that runs a children's charity. However a lot of focus on the article is about how much she made and how much more she could've made which is sickening.

As an example.

• Police sources said she looked older than 15 and was able to dupe the escort agency into believing she was 18. The identity of the agency involved has not been revealed and police are still investigating. Had she not been caught she would have gone on to earn £84,000 in a single year. And police believe her earning potential would have risen over £100,000 through entertaining more clients as she grew older. A report published by Save the Children in 2007 claimed there were approximately 5,000 child prostitutes in the UK - 75 per cent of them girls.*

It's the daily mail, which is why I haven't linked, but I can if you'd like.

There are currently between 20 to 30 active prostitutes in Grimsbyby, with ages raging from 21 to 50, although there have been unconfirmed reports of women selling themselves who are much younger. They cluster around Railway Street, the flyover and Orwell Street.*
One woman even heads out on crutches, and some working girls are trying to attract customers yards from the spot on Railway Street where a woman was rapeded.*

Then there are some men you will ask you to do the weirdest things possible, things that are so disgusting that you have to hurt them to get away from them.
"There was one man who asked me to pretend to be 12-year-old girl with her father, and act like we were trying to hide what we were doing from the mum. Then he revealed to me that he actually had a daughter that age and I was sick, I essentially ripped one of his testicles off after that, there was no way I was helping him in that sick fantasy. I then gave his registration number to the police because I was so worried about what he might do."

The mum of two said she used to be addicted to crack and heroin but isn't any longer and explained she charges £20 for oral sex, £30 for sex and £40 for both, adding "that depends on what customer you get though”

Empowering my arse!