Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

[FlamedToACrisp]

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

I’d bet my house on that not happening though - for all the way it’s dressed up & defended, the state doesn’t see it as just like any other job..

Yes. I think it's still safe to assume that schoolchildren are not yet urged to take up that kind of "work" by careers advisors.

I’ve also met office workers, teachers and police - who hate their jobs more than some sex workers hate theirs. I've also met teachers and police who I have less respect for than some of the prostitutes I've met. I've met many teachers and police I have great respect for but it isn't 100%.

Prostitution is a crucial cornerstone of patriarchy and it goes against interests of women, 99% of them, yet we are expected to tolerate it because it benefits men. I am amazed by stupidity of women who think normalizing prostitution is somehow good, they are usually the same people who chant transwomen are women. I don't blame women who are forced into prostitution, I understand those who have no other choice, but feel no solidarity to those who do it to pay uni tuition or have a better life style as they show no solidarity to women who's husbands they are f*cking, most men who visit prostitutes are married or in a relationship.

So no, I do not respect prostitues, just as I don't respect drug dealers, they both choose immoral occupations which is harmful to society. Respect must be earned.

Wasn't sex work being promoted to students at freshers fair at a particularly woke uni (may have been Brighton) as a legitimate source of extra funds? I find that normalisation frightening, it is pushing more young people (mainly women) into danger.

And as others have said, if it becomes recognised by the state as a job like any other, that theoretically means those trying to claim benefits could be forced into it.

It is not a job like any other because of the disproportionate harm it causes, including to women in wider society. Encouraging men to objectify women harms us all.

I think the argument of providing a necessary service (eg for men with disabilities) is a dangerous one. It assumes everyone has a right to sex. They don't. If you can't have it in your life consensually ie without paying then you don't have a right to it. That's dangerously close to the incel point of view. It is sad for those with disabilities if the disability is an extra barrier to having physical intimacy. But sex is not a right. Anyway I think that's a bit of a tangent!

Inappropriate thank you for sharing honestly. I also think youre getting a lot of flak on here. I hope you continue to recover from your experiences.

.. Wasn't sex work being promoted to students at freshers fair at a particularly woke uni...

Christ almighty! Were they giving out flyers with contact details for pimps?

Has anyone seen Harlots on the bbc? I've watched the first one - it's shite.

It's very well-researched, apparently, and written by the woman whose wrote The Five, a superb account centring the women of Victorian London. Haillie Rubenfold, I think.

Oh, and think again about it being seen as a proper job. The State would sanction you if it could, I bet. That's what it leads to as so-called 'sex work' is mainstreamed.

@crunchermuncher I don’t think that was a tangent at all. In fact I think it’s central to the debate. It may be a human right to pursue having a sex life (as long as you aren’t forcing anyone or making a nuisance of yourself), it is most certainly not a human right to have sex provided for you or facilitated in anyway.

The issue stems from our cultural obsession with equality of outcome, and it being conflated with equality of opportunity. These two principles are very different, but we’re living in a world now where if people see other people with anything they do not have they feel entitled to have it too.

You see it in the incel community pretty starkly, and whilst perhaps their one redeeming virtue is an aversion to prostitution, they want to see the whole world restructured around the principle of them getting laid. Without realising doing work on yourself is hell of a lot easier than trying to change the world.

Have you noticed how it’s always disabled men who’s “needs” must be catered for. Is it because the idea of getting a bloke in and paying him to service your disabled daughter would make most people horrified? My son is unlikely ever to be able to form a sexual relationship. Neither he or anyone around him will be paying someone to perform sexual services. Revolting on every level.

@Dervel I agree with what you're saying but re equal opportunity can it ever be equal what with different genes? In an extreme example someone who has the genetic makeup to be a model and someone who has the genetic makeup to be severely disabled don't start at an equal footing when it comes to finding a partner.

I might get shamed for this but I don't respect the sex workers who go into it under their own free will (I believe this is a very small percentage of sex workers though).

The issue stems from our cultural obsession with equality of outcome, and it being conflated with equality of opportunity. These two principles are very different, but we’re living in a world now where if people see other people with anything they do not have they feel entitled to have it too.

Yes that's key isn't it, I guess. You've hit the nail on the head.

I found a link to the freshers fair thing. It WAS Brighton, a couple of years ago. It wasn't pimp contact numbers but swop- the sex workers outreach project. I'm sure they provide valuable help to those already doing that work but having it at an event for young people who'll have just left home smacks of grooming, to me. Totally inappropriate. If they want to help skint students, provide budgeting and cv advice, signpost to hardship grants and campaign for no zero hours contracts and a better minimum wage.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-sussex-45703552

@coronaway well we can all work to correct for certain societal inequalities (as indeed feminism endeavours to) and indeed we should try to whenever we can. The line is crossed in my eyes when in order to enact a correction we would be forced to infringe upon the liberty of others.

So in your extreme example of the disabled woman vs the model, we can’t force people to date the disabled, but we can work alongside disabled people to encourage people to see past the disability.

Just as a personal anecdote in a friendship group I was in in my early 20s there was a young woman with a severe disability, who was actually pretty sought after, I have met few people as charming, witty, smart, fiercely ambitious and kind in my life. She was snapped up pretty quickly I must say. The issue is we tend to sometimes be unable to see past disabilities to the detriment of us all (not just those with a disability themselves).

What I think is coming up in this discussion is the deep dysfunction that informs our attitudes towards sex itself. Sure it feels good, but we place such an emphasis on it particularly for us men, it becomes a marker of status, it reinforces unhealthy power dynamics between men and women. It feeds directly into this much talked about toxic masculinity.

It’s a very big problem, and it infects all issues that relate to sex, we have a hell of a big mess to sort out and women really are most often the ones at the sharp end of it. For my part in it I really am very sorry, and I am very keen to be part of the solution.

' In an extreme example someone who has the genetic makeup to be a model and someone who has the genetic makeup to be severely disabled don't start at an equal footing when it comes to finding a partner.'

1. Most men who pay for sex are not unable to find a partner. Many already have one

1. The idea that disabled people are unfuckable is prejudiced and grim

1. How are you defining disabled anyway? I have a physical disability and have had loads of sex thanks. What is disabled being used as shorthand here for, given that it covers a vast range of conditions. Again, prejudiced as I'm sure you aren't thinking about eg someone who is blind in one eye or is missing a leg

1. Disabled women don't seem to be paying to get fucked left right and centre

1. Plenty of men who aren't disabled have trouble finding a partner. For some of them it will be because they're not nice people. Or can't be arsed. Read about incels. They blame women for not all being 14, gorgeous and gagging to jump on their cocks. The idea that men, any sort of men, are deserving of women to service them sexually results in really toxic attitudes. It's not a perspective to encourage

How come you know so many "sex workers" to be able to make that comparison?

I’ve worked in the past providing front line support services. I’ve had colleagues who have also worked with women (and some men) in different areas of the sector providing various aspects of health/ support services.

I know teachers and police (mostly friends of friends, acquaintances) who have left their jobs because they hated them. Or are trying to.

Yes. I think it's still safe to assume that schoolchildren are not yet urged to take up that kind of "work" by careers advisors.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t like the thought of a member of my family doing it. I’m not trying to advocate for it as a great career choice.

The idea that men, any sort of men, are deserving of women to service them sexually results in really toxic attitudes.

Or it’s the result of toxic attitudes already there.

respect human being, that's ok.
i can't agree to respect sex work.

there's a rabbit hole.

many sex workers are saying how wonderful sex work is.
they are saying $20,000 for month, free time, ect ect...

but we have to respect sex worker, can't say that's that's bad because that's an insult.

anyway the words 'respect' is something strange.

@BitOfFun

It's very well-researched, apparently, and written by the woman whose wrote The Five, a superb account centring the women of Victorian London. Haillie Rubenfold, I think.

Harlots was inspired by The Covent Garden Ladies by Hallie Rubenhold. Rubenhold isn't a writer of the series.

I haven't watched it and don't intend to

@ancientgran

I don't know if the law has changed but back when I was working for the police the charge was "Known common prostitute" so one day a group of right on women from the local uni decided this was insulting and they wanted it dropped. They asked our sergeant if they could come in and meet some of the local prostitutes to start a campaign so that women would just get charged with soliciting (this was street prostitution or working from windows.) They nearly got murdered.

As I say I don't know if it has changed but back then you got two cautions before you could be charged with soliciting. The clock reset every year so after two cautions the bright ones would get a train to another city, use a false name and work there till they got two cautions and then on elsewhere. When the 12 months were up they started working locally again. They definitely didn't want the charge changed even those these well meaning women thought being called a "known common prostitute" would unite the women in a campaign.

They were very confused.

It is illegal in the UK to solicit or run a brothel not to be a prostitute. If these women were charged with an offence it would have been for soliciting , pimping etc.

I do judge you and I don't respect you.

Women like you boasting about how much money you made being a prostitute are not quite as despicable as the punters who paid to masturbate in to you but not far off it. You are part of the problem being happy to collaborate with the normalisation of the sexual exploitation of women.

Quote didn't work. This is the post I was referring to. I do not respect you.

winerack19

^holy moly! Pormer prostitute/sex worker here.
Story time^

I was living in Australia at the time. I had been there almost 2 years with my visa expiring and no option to stay other than to go on a student visa. I'd seriously been considering doing my masters anyway back in the UK but after 2 years in Aus, I'd really made a life and home-away-from-home for myself. The thought of leaving was awful, and I really didn't have much back in the UK that made going back an appealing option

But as an international student I was looking a t $80,000 or roughly £44,000 for a 2 years masters degree. 27 year old me was a pretty good saver, but I was still about £20,000 off. Plus I didn't really want to have to use up all my savings soooo...

I end up chatting to a friend of a friend at a party about it all. She jokingly said "well there's always escorting." My response was "honestly at this stage I'd consider it" and that's when the convo got serious. She'd been an escort for 4 years in Sydney. I quickly learnt how incredibly well escorts are paid here in Australia.

For a standard "girlfriend experience" I charged $350 for half an our, $650 for an hour. For the experience up, $500 half an hour, $900 an hour

I'd book 3 nights a week in a hotel room and usually see around 8 clients -10 clients. After taxes, cost of hotels, personal grooming etc, I was still making damn good money and I'm sure you can roughly work out that it didn't take me long at all to have my $80,000

I don't have a single regret. It gave me incredible financial security. Afforded me to do a masters in a degree that lead to a career I absolutely love. Very luckily only had a handful of shitty clients in the time I was doing it. I had my head on straight the entire time. And made damn good money doing it
If you want to judge me that's one thing, but to not respect me as a human being because I was able to get $900 an hour doing something women do for free anyway, I mean that's on you but it's a bit sad

@DidoLamenting they would be charged with soliciting or loitering as a known common prostitute. If they weren't classed as a known common prostitute they would not get charged with loitering or soliciting they would get a caution. That was how it worked, as I said the law might have changed, I changed jobs and had a whole new career and then retired so going back a bit.

To be charged with running a brothel you didn't need to be a prostitute, just allow more than one prostitute to work from your premises.

@NewNewt what should get therapy for, coming to terms with the fact I sold my body for sex or to come to terms with the word prostitute?! I am at peace with the fact I was a hooker and it was in a desperate financial position again and needed money then I wouldn’t think twice about selling my body again!

If you meant I need therapy to come to terms with the fact my job was prostitution then I don’t know how many times I can say this, I know I was a prostitute, I just don’t like the word and every sex worker is the same, and if your not one then you won’t get it.

Jeez some people on here picking at me for utter rubbish when the real issue probably is that I slept with other women’s men and you don’t like it!

...and probs like most other sex workers on here then I don’t GAF if people on MN disrespect me or what I did, so effing what?! I’ll still sleep like a baby tonight knowing this!

Also working as an independent escort, like I did near the end, and paying tax means the police cannot touch you!

Still prettifying it - for someone who doesn't have a problem being a prostitute you don't half go on about why you shouldn't be named as one.