Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

[FlamedToACrisp]

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

@DidoLamenting the reason we shouldn’t have a go at the women who engage in it. Is because it is because a lot of these women are pursuing this out of real and genuine need, men are pursuing it out of a want. I don’t feel remotely entitled going after people who are stuck in it out of desperation.

Men on the other hand are pursuing this out of a want and not a need and that’s why they are more culpable. I believe men and women are equal and are therefore equally morally responsible, but the motivations at play here place more emphasis on men’s part in this.

I’m a man and haven’t had sex in over 8 years, and as much as a I sorely miss good sex I can promise you it’s not a “need”. It’s certainly not something I have any sort of right to exploit any woman to attain.

i respect them as human beings, but I dont respect that its a valid job or that sex and sexuality should be commericalised and commodified. I think the entire industry is a shitshow and based on slavery and misogyny and the entire movement to sanitise it and make it sound like a good option is dangerous.
Of course some women profit from it and arent emotionally and physically scarred, but theyre in the minority

@Dervel from what I've read Dido has an issue with the women that promote as a valid choice, look how much money and gifts I'm making, I'm living the high life and everything is so well and good.

What these women don't seem to understand is that for every one of them, there are hundreds of thousands of children and women around the world that are abused,trafficked,forced etc and that by legitimising what they do , they also legitimise punters picking 13 yo Jane of the street . They make it easier for society to lie to itself that it's not that bad. They make it easier for society to turn a blind eye to CSE and trafficking. They make it easier for society to not look into and change the things that might stop other women and children end up prostituted.

They make it easier for society to not look into and change the things that might stop other women and children end up prostituted

Those in the industry by their own fully free choice are NOT the ones 'making it easier for society to look into and change the things that might stop other women and children end up prostituted' !!

UNIVERSAL CREDIT system, 5 week wait, debt deductions, sanctions, lack of mental health and addiction services, lack of childcare, lack of affordable housing !!

Those are the REASONS most of us end up in the industry.

Why aren't you (collective) listening to us ??!!

making it easier for society to NOT look into I should've said.

Apologies. This topic makes me angry.

I got into sex work / prostitution (whatever you want to call it), because of the benefits system and how difficult it is for some people to live on it no matter how frugal they are/ navigate it.

NOT because of pimps, NOT because of drugs, NOT because of 'happy hookers'.

Because of the system we have which can leave a person with £40/£50 a week or less, to pay for absolutely every need after rent, no matter how many jobs they've applied for or if they are disabled. Or sanction them and leave them with nothing for food or utilities.

It's like shouting into a massive echo chamber!!

Why aren't you (the non sex workers) listening to us ??

I 'worked' for years. A minority are addicts, a minority are 'happy hookers', most of us are just people in difficult economic circumstances just trying to get by. With hidden disabilities not recognised by benefits, fleeing domestic violence, in severe debt, without family help etc etc.

Largely we don't care if you 'respect' us or not. Well, that's not completely true - if you don't, it just adds to how marginalised we already feel and we internalise it that little bit more.

The lack of a a viable safety net is what drives most of us to it. Other times it's not being able to afford a decent standard of living with the resources we have at our disposal.

As an exited sex worker / prostitute, we are not being listened to, and what we say we need is not being taken into account.

Agree vegetal.

The fact that women always seem to bear the brunt when things in the economy get worse is often flagged in the press but nothing happens.

With universal credit, there were plenty of articles about women being pushed into various types of sex work including prostitution.

It's known and recognised that this happens over and over but in wider society there's very little appetite to do anything about it apart from a bit of hand wringing and then forget about it.

Would a universal basic income make a difference vegetal?

I’m a man and haven’t had sex in over 8 years, and as much as a I sorely miss good sex I can promise you it’s not a “need”. It’s certainly not something I have any sort of right to exploit any woman to attain

Er I really don't need you to tell me sex is not a need.

You might however try telling the women behind this. I understand Helen Mirren is a patron/ approves of it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/10/sex-workers-disabled-people

[quote ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble]**@Dervel* from what I've read Dido* has an issue with the women that promote as a valid choice, look how much money and gifts I'm making, I'm living the high life and everything is so well and good.

What these women don't seem to understand is that for every one of them, there are hundreds of thousands of children and women around the world that are abused,trafficked,forced etc and that by legitimising what they do , they also legitimise punters picking 13 yo Jane of the street . They make it easier for society to lie to itself that it's not that bad. They make it easier for society to turn a blind eye to CSE and trafficking. They make it easier for society to not look into and change the things that might stop other women and children end up prostituted.[/quote]
Absolutely. I have no respect for them, any more than I would have for a pimp.

Where is this idea coming from that everyone deserves respect? Yes that might be true as a basic principle but it is very easy to behave in a way where respect is lost.

@vegetal

They make it easier for society to not look into and change the things that might stop other women and children end up prostituted

Those in the industry by their own fully free choice are NOT the ones 'making it easier for society to look into and change the things that might stop other women and children end up prostituted' !!

UNIVERSAL CREDIT system, 5 week wait, debt deductions, sanctions, lack of mental health and addiction services, lack of childcare, lack of affordable housing !!

Those are the REASONS most of us end up in the industry.

Why aren't you (collective) listening to us ??!!

I am really sorry I have angered/upset you. I will try to explain my way of thinking.

In my eyes, making prostitution look like a valid,legitimate, "well paid" job/choice means governments/society do not need to change any of those things you mentioned. After all , according to some,women can have a job "like any other", that "pays well" and they can "easily" and quickly supplement their income and make thousands.

I do not believe women driven to it by poverty are really doing it "by choice".

It should never come to this. Adequate support (not just financial) should be given to women so they don't end up in this situation. Prostitution should never be on the table as a better option(what fucked up world we live in) , it should definitely never be the only option .

I hope this make sense.

@DidoLamenting I propose a compromise, I think there are actions otherwise respect worthy people commit out of desperation, lesser of two evils kind of stuff in that case judge the action, but respect the person. Then there are actions committed that are so reprehensible the perpetrator loses any and all respect as individuals. I don’t think it is accurate to apply the same moral weight to someone who sells sex as someone who buys it.

It's the daily mail, which is why I haven't linked, but I can if you'd like

Oh fgs- you are talking about men paying to rape a 15 year old and are having vapours about posting a link to The Daily Mail?

It wouldn't even surprise me if The Mail were the only paper carrying the story.

I don't really follow the line of thinking that says universal credit doesn't pay enough therefore I had to turn to prostitution. If someone used that excuse for them becoming a drug dealer or shop lifter I wouldn't respect them either.

Wow that's fucking callous. And if you don't understand how it could happen why not try googling it. There have been a ton of news items about it. Maybe you don't follow the news.

Anyway to save your fingers typing here's one article. www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/22/universal-credit-hardship-linked-to-prostitution

Also drug dealing and shop lifting are illegal while prostitution is not. So why are you drawing that comparison.

If a woman (or man) wants to provide sex for money why is that wrong?
It's not wrong.
The bit that's wrong is the pnter who feels so entitled to sex that they pay someone to waive consent.
The pnter who sees women as a commodity to be bought. Its a damaging attitude and the more we normalise the purchase of sex, the more we normalise women as commodities.
A man who sees sex as a right is a man who is more likely to coerce, abuse and even rape women. We shouldn't be doing anything to support this.

@NiceGerbil yes good point on the legality aspect, I keep forgetting it's legal.

I put them in the same category as I think they're all very damaging to society.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

That's one of the hypocrisies that always come up in discussions about prostitution.

It's a valid choice...as long as it's someone else's daughter,mother,sister etc.

Yes I’m well aware of that. I’m trying to explore why.

I know someone who desperately doesn’t want their daughter to join the police even though it’s her ambition. Doesn’t mean they (the parent) doesn’t think it’s an honourable profession or ok for other people. Life is full of these contradictions. I’m just wondering why.

[quote coronaway]@NiceGerbil yes good point on the legality aspect, I keep forgetting it's legal.

I put them in the same category as I think they're all very damaging to society.[/quote]
But you don't think it's 'damaging to society' that people - human beings - are often denied enough for the basics of life ??

That it's damaging that there is a need for a parliamentary focus group and report on 'Universal Credit and Survival Sex' ??

You just don't 'respect' the women put in that position ??

Alrighty then.

@vegetal

@vegetal no because I don't accept that is their only option. If they're trafficked into it that is a different matter entirely. I'm purely speaking about those who freely choose to do it.

But how can it ever be “freely chosen”. If it’s a choice between no food and shelter for you, or even you and your kids?

Furthermore even those women higher up the sex food chain so to speak who engage in it briefly and get qualifications and smartly invest, and seem to have no outward signs of trauma. There is still a societal inequality there as very few men need to engage in sex work to become academics, scientists, climb the corporate ladder to get ahead in life etc. So yes whilst at first glance our minted happy hooker might seem to be a success story? However despite that it seems the higher echelons of success are still so sufficiently barred to women do we really want to live in a world where sex work is one of the few routes available for women to progress?? That soundly especially “freely” to me if you’ll forgive me for saying so.

[quote coronaway]@vegetal no because I don't accept that is their only option. If they're trafficked into it that is a different matter entirely. I'm purely speaking about those who freely choose to do it.[/quote]
I can assure you that short of begging on the streets for food or key meter top ups, sex work / prostitution WAS my only choice at one point. It was begging or sex work. As a UK citizen.

What part of that can't you 'accept' ??!!

Have you read the parliamentary report on Universal Credit and Survival Sex ??

Have you ever been in debt and on universal credit ??

There are those who are trafficked and on the other hand there are those who make a completely 'free' choice in the sense that they don't 'need' to work in the industry for essentials. Some have mental health issues / abuse issues though. Most of us - and I include the many, many undocumented immigrants I met and shared premises with in this - are just doing what we can to get by, living in a system in which many people are impoverished by 'benefit' systems and other inequalities. A Hobson's choice.

It's grim that you and others do not respect us, refuse to believe that the welfare system is inadequate and refuse to believe that that drives prostitution.

If a proper welfare system existed, I'd never have ended up in prostitution.

I have a friend who suffers badly with her mental health. The government repeatedly insist she's 'fit to work' despite the fact she cannot leave her house for weeks at a time due to previous sexual assault and the resulting trauma. They sanctioned her despite this, for not looking hard enough for work. In case you didn't know, a sanction removes ALL benefits except housing. So, no food, no heating. She is 'working' on the occasional day when she can now. She, rightly or wrongly, sees it as preferable to dealing with the job centre.

Universal Basic Income ?? I'm starting to think yes. I don't know too much about it, but I think it could be a help.

[quote coronaway]@vegetal no because I don't accept that is their only option. If they're trafficked into it that is a different matter entirely. I'm purely speaking about those who freely choose to do it.[/quote]
That is your own problem and limitation. I suggest you do a bit more reading and listening on the subject.

Well I used to be against a universal basic income, as I currently can’t think of a way to make it work, but considering how many social problems we have, of which sex work is one I’m coming round to thinking we have to put our thinking caps on.

I don’t think a UBI is a complete magic bullet as we’ll still have the problems of women who want more affluent lifestyles entering into it for that reason, but I’d be very keen indeed to get as many women out of survival prostitution as quickly as humanely possible.

@worriertryingnottoshowit I’m sorry you’ve been in that position, and I don’t mean sorry in an abstract impersonal sense I mean it in that we’re all incrementally responsible for the society we live in kind of way. We all have to shoulder responsibility for where we have ended up. I think the lack of respect for sex workers/ prostitutes or whatever term you are comfortable with is as way of scapegoating our collective shame onto you (and almost never the buyers), that says more about us than it does you, and I’m sorry about that too.