Educate me! Trans women who have undergone surgery accessing changing rooms, women's toilets...

[sandinmybellybutton]

So, I'm clear on where I stand with trans women who have not undergone any surgery accessing toilets, changing rooms, etc and women's "safe spaces.

But what about those who have had their male genitals removed and made a conscious effort to look like a woman? I know this does not change their biology but how does this impact on the argument about trans women posing a threat of violence to women in their spaces. I'm a wee bit torn on this one to be honest but am sure someone out there must have a good case to make either way to help me make up my mind.

Come educate me Ladies !

There's no surgery for male socialisation. Males never become female, so imo they shouldn't be in female spaces.

I mean, if someone passes, I won't know they're not meant to be there. It's between them and their conscience.

I think male ppl of any gender prove they are no threat to women by keeping out of the very few women-only spaces that exist.

Surgery does not change behaviour or socialisation. If it did then they would never ask to use our spaces in the first place.

Women understand the need for single sex spaces.

I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few posters are torn on this issue as I am as well.

My personal view would be I wouldn't have an issue with toilets, changing rooms etc.. but would still consider it dangerous in a refuge towards natal womens ongoing emotional trauma and in prisons because of physiological advantage.

But the issue is that we either have sex based rights or we dont and it shouldn't be a moving line of what's acceptable.

The emphasis should be that trans women need to be accepted and affirmed as biological males in male space with safety and dignity. It's the not the responsibility of women to placate because of male violence.

'Educate me'?

It is not a woman's job to educate you. Take some responsibility and educate yourself.

Interesting this one. I had a friend about 20 years ago who had full surgery. She was great, we could talk about trans and she would point out what was male about herself. She definitely had dysphoria.

I asked her why she had gone for such major interventions and did it work out for her. Yes, she said that for the first time in her life she felt content.

I would have her in my changing rooms but .........

she said she would use female loos but she would never use a woman's changing room at a gym or sports facility. I think now she would be supporting a third space

Transwomen retain male levels of criminality.
Transwomen who can properly empathise with women would not wish to put women in the situation where they are forced to be in a mixed sex environment. Those who wish to impose themselves on women are doing so without any regard to the feelings of women in that space and therefore should not be in that space.

@titchy

'Educate me'?

It is not a woman's job to educate you. Take some responsibility and educate yourself.

Wow. Clearly titchy doesn't believe that one can education oneself by speaking to others more well versed on these matters.

I am a woman.

I have listened to countless debates, read threads on here, YouTube videos and have yet to find an argument that convinced me either way.
I assumed this place would be the best place to admit that I honestly didn't know how I felt without being chastised or judged.

Thankfully most people on the thread understood that.

@Aesopfable

Transwomen retain male levels of criminality. Transwomen who can properly empathise with women would not wish to put women in the situation where they are forced to be in a mixed sex environment. Those who wish to impose themselves on women are doing so without any regard to the feelings of women in that space and therefore should not be in that space.

I don't think your first sentence makes sense. People can be divided into any subsection of society according to their characteristics - whether that's race, gender, religion, age, socioeconomic background etc.. Each of those groups will have different 'levels' of criminality, so it's meaningless to apply those 'levels' to individuals.

Sex based spaces are for women's safety.

Do you think it is safe to ask a male person whether or not they have had their penis removed?

This is not women's problem to solve. Transgender people need to sort out their own facilities to accommodate their specific needs.

No males in female sex segregated spaces. It's really very, very easy.

Have you read this thread OP?www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

A rule of thumb. If a man would take advantage of any loophole to do something which he knows will distress women and girls then he is NOT someone you can trust. He is exactly the kind of person you want to keep out.

Women have made it plain how they feel. Any man who walks through that door has to know that and not care.

catpoooffender as a group the level of crime committed by Transwomen is the same as the level of crime committed by other men. I am not ascribing this to individuals but we make judgements based on risk and the risk to me from an unknown transwoman is the same as the risk from any other unknown man.

@titchy

Wow. Clearly titchy doesn't believe that one can education oneself by speaking to others more well versed on these matters.

Given the quantity of threads on the subject matter it's easy enough to educate oneself. One doesn't need to post a thread and let others do the work for one.

I can OP has been around a little while, but even so. Trolls often start threads saying 'educate me' - so people should be cautious when a poster wants others to do their work for them.

You could apply that logic to anyone who asked any question on any topic on Mumsnet.

[quote SweetGrapes]Have you read this thread OP?www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me[/quote]
Don't think I have. Will have a look thank you.

And I would also percieve the risk to me of a transwoman in female space to be high as they have ignored the fact it is a female space, ignore how I might feel about it, put there own feelings above those of women. They have already caused me harm.

I'm not torn on this issue at all.
No men in single sex places. I don't care if they pass, I don't care if they've had their genitals removed.
They are still men. There was a reason that single sex places were provided for women. We need them more than ever now.
No, not ever is my answer. I'm in no doubt about that at all.

I probably would never know if it was a well passing person who was being quiet and just getting on with stuff (the Haley cropper type?)
And are we then saying trans men must still use the female toilets? As that would cause far more comment and worry as you'd assume it was a man in the toilets. Until they say they are really a woman. But then any man could also say that if they wanted too!

A man without a penis isn't a woman.

I'm baffled that women who say they understand, still fail to understand this.

Women are, strangely, human beings in their own right. As a concept, an entity, a physical presence and a material reality. They share characteristics which put them in the same category.

They're not service humans. Or support beings. They are not there to validate the feelings of men, however they identify. It seems quite a few people have a lot of trouble understanding this.

Women's spaces are for women to occupy, largely when they are at their most vulnerable. Not vulnerable to dogs, snakes, or scorpions. Vulnerable to the opposite sex.

It takes a mind wholly disinterested in women to imagine that their spaces are designed to actually validate the opposite sex.

OP the problem is that women do not know every individual's surgical history. If it cannot be "policed" then safeguarding needs would suggest keeping women's spaces single SEX.

Also, I have felt like you in the past-- fairly conflicted. But then a family member fully transitioned at 56. Do I want this person changing beside me? I do not.

The feminist point is not 'how can I compromise for men?' The feminist perspective is, how is this best for women.
I'm sure you'll agree that we have to draw a line somewhere, otherwise we may as well get rid of all single sex spaces. Some people are advocating for that.
If you want single sex female spaces sometimes, how do you decide to make a workable exception between one male and another male? How do you enforce that exception?