Educate me! Trans women who have undergone surgery accessing changing rooms, women's toilets...

[sandinmybellybutton]

So, I'm clear on where I stand with trans women who have not undergone any surgery accessing toilets, changing rooms, etc and women's "safe spaces.

But what about those who have had their male genitals removed and made a conscious effort to look like a woman? I know this does not change their biology but how does this impact on the argument about trans women posing a threat of violence to women in their spaces. I'm a wee bit torn on this one to be honest but am sure someone out there must have a good case to make either way to help me make up my mind.

Come educate me Ladies !

And to re-interate the original point - should transmen use the ladies? Where trans women go may not be women's problem to fix as they are biological men, but where transmen go is - they are biological women.
Yep - trans men can use the ladies.
I actually DGAF about 90% of people sharing space. What I want is to is be able to tell people who make me feel threatened to GTFO. Transmen are very unlikely to make me feel threatened so I don't care.

Seriously. This stuff is not hard. I want protecting from predatory offenders. 98% of those are men (but not all men are predatory). I want to be able to trust my gut. Not be told that someone saying "I'm a woman" overrides that.

I see campaigning for a third space as a way of keeping single sex spaces for women.

First you have to spend all of your time convincing our legislators why we need single-sex spaces. Which now involves trying to persuade them that international human rights law continues to apply as written. Or that UK equality law has been misinterpreted and then misrepresented from the beginning. Or that allowing lobbying organisations undue influence over regulators is extremely undemocratic. Or that sex exists. Or that enshrining in law the ludicrous notion that one's preference for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one or the other sex is present from birth and takes precedence over one's sex is not only regressive bullshit but also most damaging to females in particular. Or that medical treatment for children to which informed consent even for parents is impossible because risks are unknown is unethical and probably criminal practice.

I could easily list another 30 things we've been doing that take enormous amounts of time. Like writing submissions to umpteen consultations, which requires first teaching yourself equality law, reading hundreds of pages of consultation papers, checking references, reading papers then putting a coherent submission together, then following up, giving evidence etc etc etc.

Leafletting, letter writing, holding and attending public meetings. Networking. Planning campaigns, assessing failure and success then planning the next. Publicising on social media, blogs, websites, the media. Asking and being rejected and asking again and again and again to meet with the same politicians and ministers and public servants who happily allow themselves to be lobbied by trans rights organisations. Writing letters to councils, to companies, to charities, impact assessments, research papers, articles...

In addition to, as FloralBunting pointed out above, our paid work, raising our children, looking after our parents and all of the others things women do.

Thankfully there are now many of us, doing as much as we can in whatever time we can spare and we are nowhere near finished.

You may, if you wish, skip ahead and campaign for third spaces, but we're going to keep laying the groundwork first.

Toilets are a red herring imo. There are more important spaces, prisons, sport, women's refuge, crime statistics etc.

I have a friend whose DD is transitioning from F to M. Guess which toilets she uses 2 years down the line (sorry He). I wonder if it’s because they don’t find them safe or they are disgusting.
I mean why doesn’t everyone use the fucking ladies, there’s loads of them, you don’t have to queue or anything.

I’ve only realised that so much of the trans community has become so militant is due to the fact they don’t ‘pass’ and they want to force us to pretend they do. I think those that genuinely do pass are rare.
I imagine if you’ve had major life changing surgery and you still look like a man, you must be pissed off, this happened to a colleague of DH, I think the pre-surgery support must be absolutely shit. If you are a bald, fat, middle aged man, surgery is not going to make you a super attractive woman, sorry, but it won’t.

Sorry if I have missed this.

Single sexed spaces are good for keeping females safe.

So if someone is born male but transitions to a female, some people believe they shouldn’t be in the female space as they can still have the mentality of a male?

But what about someone who is born female but then transitions to a male so has a penis but has the mentality of a female? If they looked feminine would they be ok using the female rooms which is a ‘safe’ space?

Sorry just seen this has been answered.

This is a problem TRAs have created by demanding access to spaces based on feelings. Personally I'm still totally happy to share space with trans women, in the same way I always have. I just want to have barriers for predators, voyeurs, perverts etc. Until TRAs recognise that and come up with a solution that isn't "suck it up buttercup, there is no risk" then I'm saying no males in female spaces. Regardless of surgery. I feel terribly for trans women caught up in this, but they need to stand with us and say "not in my name". Rather than side with these ridiculous demands that feelings trump biology.

Thank you, Quentin, you have helped me to clarify my thoughts on this.

I'm not sure I would even know who was trans and who wasn't in the loo - I purposely don't look at people in toilets! In and out ASAP. Presumably anyone who is a threat in some way could just walk into whatever toilet anyway?

If so-called allies of TW spent as much time lobbying their local council for provision of a self contained gender neutral loo on the local high Street as they do haranguing women, the loo problem would be solved.

It's not solved, largely because TRAs are more invested in a land grab.

@Iverunoutofnames

I have a friend whose DD is transitioning from F to M. Guess which toilets she uses 2 years down the line (sorry He). I wonder if it’s because they don’t find them safe or they are disgusting. I mean why doesn’t everyone use the fucking ladies, there’s loads of them, you don’t have to queue or anything.

I’ve only realised that so much of the trans community has become so militant is due to the fact they don’t ‘pass’ and they want to force us to pretend they do. I think those that genuinely do pass are rare.
I imagine if you’ve had major life changing surgery and you still look like a man, you must be pissed off, this happened to a colleague of DH, I think the pre-surgery support must be absolutely shit. If you are a bald, fat, middle aged man, surgery is not going to make you a super attractive woman, sorry, but it won’t.

The reason the policy is usually written so that trans persons can use whichever loo or changing room suits them is because requiring females who are transitioning to use the male facilities is a bridge too far for just about everyone.

Single sex toilets are important.

Do you think noticing the person looking in the mirror is a transwoman and then freezing (fight/fight/freeze reaction) gives the transwoman the right to physically and verbally threaten the woman who is scared?

It has happened. It happened to me.

@BadTattoosAndSmellLikeBooze

What about other women? Women who are unable to have TW in their toilets, because it triggers the PTSD from when they were attacked, or because their religion forbids it? Or the women who just do not want TW in a same sex space?

I don’t want pre op trans women in female toilets, not sure of my feelings on post op. But I have seen it argued that the religious thing is a similar thing. It’s just an ideology, just one that happens to be a protected characteristic.

For those women alone who I've mentioned, it's no. No men with beards, or dresses, or jeans, or breasts or even who have had a penilectomy. No men, at all. If not for you, then for other women.

@AlwaysLatte

I'm not sure I would even know who was trans and who wasn't in the loo - I purposely don't look at people in toilets! In and out ASAP. Presumably anyone who is a threat in some way could just walk into whatever toilet anyway?

Firstly, what about communal changing rooms (eg gyms, swimming pools?)

Secondly, at the moment women have the right to request a male to leave the women's facilities or ask staff to remove that person. If the law were changed, women would lose that right to challenge a male in any way. If the male-bodied person said they were a woman, you would have to accept that.

Thirdly, yes, someone who wanted to harm woman could just walk into the ladies' anyway. In the same way that someone who wanted to burgle your house could do that too. However, presumably you still lock your door before you leave the house.

Incidentally, while you might occasionally have the odd male cleaner in women's toilets, you would certainly not come across one in a female changing room at the gym.

Finally, perhaps look up Hannah Mouncey. Mouncey's teammates were not comfortable sharing changing and showering facilities with Mouncey. Were they transphobic? Do you think they would have felt any more comfortable sharing with Mouncey once Mouncey had had the op?

Transmen feel safe using the ladies loos because women do not threaten them

Transwomen do not feel safe using the men's loos because men have a LONG history of sexual, homophobic and general violence.

MEN need to adjust how they do things
not Women

It's comes down to risk assessment. If it's a space where having a penis makes you a risk, but make privilege doesn't, then I would give the concession.

Having a penis means you have grown up with male privilege. Removing the penis does not remove male privilege, nor the effects of testosterone and male puberty.

A man does not rape because he has a penis, but because he makes the choice to abuse another person. His penis is his tool, he could equally well chose to use his fists or his speech. Removing his penis does not remove his ability to abuse.

What about early transitioners, though? Males who never had a chance to mature into men, who were emasculated as children, first by puberty blockers and then by surgery. They won't have grown up learning and internalising male privilege, but neither will they have had truly female socialisation. Their childhood and teenagerhood won't have been normal by any sense, with constant medicalisation and validation of their confusion. Where do they belong? Are they a threat to women? Are they the same thin end of the wedge as the dysphoric adults who make a huge effort to pass quietly, inoffensively and un-noticeably?

Where do they belong? Are they a threat to women? Are they the same thin end of the wedge as the dysphoric adults who make a huge effort to pass quietly, inoffensively and un-noticeably?

Think it all really comes down to is it a space for women or a space for anyone who has been through processes or trauma in life and may not be safe with the men?

Womens spaces need to mean just that.

As much as I feel for those poor kids being put through all this right now, it's still not our problem.to solve what should have been made clear before they started all this.

I think we can still be there for/support and continue to fight for these young adults while maintaining our boundries in our spaces.

I think sadly we have seen too much evidence of "give an inch and they will take a mile" . We cant afford attempt once again to make exceptions. It never ends well

Exactly Roswell. Many males ARE vulnerable to other males- they don't have to be trans, they might be small, effeminate, nervous, odd looking. Any number of traits can cause a reaction from the wrong sort of man. In male prisons,for example, vulnerable prisoners need to be identified and protected. Just not by saying " right, anyone vulnerable in with the ladies!" That's just madness.

I also think if we keep bailing people out and moving over to absorb the results that none of the people who need to be held accountable will be held accountable.

We need to be firm and continue sayong NO. Then leave them to explain to everyone why its not how they were told it will be.

@ListeningQuietly * MEN need to adjust how they do things
not Women* True about so many areas of women's rights.

It's just so simple but who's listening?

What about early transitioners, though? Males who never had a chance to mature into men, who were emasculated as children, first by puberty blockers and then by surgery.
These people are victims of a horrific medical scandal.
The reason you couldn't draw the line there is it would encourage further medical abuses. Your child must be given puberty blockers right now Mr and Ms Mermaid or she will never be able to participate in sport or use women's changing facilities.
Plus no way you could make that the line without TRA-central using it as thin end of a wedge.

Highame
It's just so simple but who's listening?

I think we as women need to start changing the questions we ask .....

Not How do you define a woman?
but How do you define a man?

Not How do we make trans people feel safe in toilets
but Why do so many men feel the right to attack "other" people in toilets?

Not How do we make refuges trans friendly?
but Why are refuges needed at all in a civilised society?

Because if those questions are adequately addressed
everybody will benefit
Women
Children
Trans men and women
Gay men and women
the physically disabled and those with learning difficulties
various races and creeds

In fact ALL of the groups that certain men have got away with beating up and persecuting for a rather long time.

@JellySlice

What about early transitioners, though? Males who never had a chance to mature into men, who were emasculated as children, first by puberty blockers and then by surgery. They won't have grown up learning and internalising male privilege, but neither will they have had truly female socialisation. Their childhood and teenagerhood won't have been normal by any sense, with constant medicalisation and validation of their confusion. Where do they belong? Are they a threat to women? Are they the same thin end of the wedge as the dysphoric adults who make a huge effort to pass quietly, inoffensively and un-noticeably?

Still men.

No