Educate me! Trans women who have undergone surgery accessing changing rooms, women's toilets...

[sandinmybellybutton]

So, I'm clear on where I stand with trans women who have not undergone any surgery accessing toilets, changing rooms, etc and women's "safe spaces.

But what about those who have had their male genitals removed and made a conscious effort to look like a woman? I know this does not change their biology but how does this impact on the argument about trans women posing a threat of violence to women in their spaces. I'm a wee bit torn on this one to be honest but am sure someone out there must have a good case to make either way to help me make up my mind.

Come educate me Ladies !

Good post @ListeningQuietly

I will never be able to express my thoughts on this as clearly and as eloquently with reasoned debated as some of the great women on here. So I will just say it.

No men in my women only space. Ever. I am extremely disabled and I perceive men in my space as a threat. Whether the man has a penis or not is irrelevant.

No relevant but,
As an aside I do a lot of work for Artificial Intelligence. A.I. bots cannot distinguish between men dressing as women and men who present as men. The A. I. bots sees them all as men with very few exceptions and those are usually teens. I think this is a very good and very interesting thing as we, as humans, are not allowed to 'misgender' males.

The bots certainly do recognise trans women for their biological male sex.

AI bots recognise TWs as males because they have been programmed to identify physiological differences that are due to biology.

It seems inevitable that one day a woke tech organisation will programme an AI to recognise gender cues instead.

@highame

Interesting this one. I had a friend about 20 years ago who had full surgery. She was great, we could talk about trans and she would point out what was male about herself. She definitely had dysphoria.

I asked her why she had gone for such major interventions and did it work out for her. Yes, she said that for the first time in her life she felt content.

I would have her in my changing rooms but .........

she said she would use female loos but she would never use a woman's changing room at a gym or sports facility. I think now she would be supporting a third space

I see a lot of people draw a line like this around the old school transexuals (who aside from having full surgery also were all homosexuals. And their numbers were always quite small.)

They may be quite ok with just a regular public loo or one in an office, or joining the women's swim class in the pool etc. They would not be so ok with situations like changing rooms, much less shelters, prisons, or hospital wards. Different people might draw the line slightly differently, and a lot would say that you really have to look at these situations individually and they can differ enough, and are rare enough, that blanket policies might not work.

I think it all gets messy. Just thinking about this issue:

If a man loses his penis in a terrible accident, should he now use the women's toilets and changing rooms because he is no longer a man?

If an old school mtf post-op transsexual later regrets surgery and wishes to re-identify as a man, should that person use the men's toilets, even though they had elective surgery to try to become a woman? If 'yes', why is that?

If that person then used the women's facilities, would women have the right to object? If yes, how would women know they had that right?

Does this all come down to the feelings in a man's head? Is a woman just a man without a penis? (A deficient man.)

What if a mtf transitioner really really wants to have surgery but can't, because that person has a medical condition which means that such surgery would be very dangerous for them? The hormones they have been taking mean that their penis is dysfunctional anyway so they couldn't rape anyone - should they be an exception to the 'no penises' rule?

What if the above hypothetical transwoman dies on the operating table because they thought it a risk worth taking. Would that be the fault of women for taking such a hard line and insisting on surgery before allowing access to their spaces? Or would that be the fault of women for not taking a hard enough line by allowing post-op transwomen into their spaces? Is this the fault of women at all, or is this the fault of transwomen demanding access to women's spaces in the first place?

When, exactly, do women have the right to say no?

I find my line on this is informed by situations where females are extremely vulnerable.

I would not be happy about a GRC-holding transwoman providing intimate care to my elderly grandmother in her home, for example, such as changing her incontinence pads or cleaning her up after an incident of incontinence.

In my view, my grandmother has a right to insist that only a biological female provides that kind of care.

We also need to consider just where chaperones are seen as necessary in certain healthcare contexts and why.

I have a male relative who's vulnerable because he has a learning disability. People with disabilities experience high rates of violence.

Should he use the ladies? Of course not. Sex segregation works. Women are not human shields.

@wrongsideofhistorymyarse

I have a male relative who's vulnerable because he has a learning disability. People with disabilities experience high rates of violence.

Should he use the ladies? Of course not. Sex segregation works. Women are not human shields.

Seems like the best solution all round would to leave the women's facilities as they are (single sex) and put effort into making male facilities safer for all males. Boys, gay men, vulnerable adults, and male nonbinary and trans people.

I don't know how but tbh men ought to step up and try to solve their own problems.

I have a male relative who's vulnerable because he has a learning disability. People with disabilities experience high rates of violence.
sadly mostly from men

which brings me back again more and more firmly
to the view
that feminists need to frame the whole conversation around the changes men need to make

and yet again going back to the disability analogy on which my knowledge is ROCK SOLID

: Wheelchair users demanded to be spoken to as articulate adults

• all short people benefited

: Wheelchair users demanded the right to be able to cross roads without an assistant

• dropped kerbs benefited them, the old and the young

: Blind people demanded braille signs in buildings

• everybody in a burning building benefited

: Deaf people demanded signing and subtitles on the media

• those who did not realise they were going deaf
• and millions of distracted parents benefited

So : what are the societal benefits of what the TRAs want ?

I would add that the dropped kerbs benefited those pushing prams...

I don't believe they give a damn about the benefits to society. It's all about validation.

I don't believe they give a damn about the benefits to society. It's all about validation.
So the questions we ask need to change to call that out .....

eg what are the sexual / gender criteria for an Eton application ....
park the tanks on their lawn

No not acceptable, the solution is for men to be more accommodating, we need separate women's facilities and the men's should become any gender facilities.

We got into this mess of bearded men's suit wearing penis haven TW demanding access to women's spaces in part because we didn't push back harder when the 'old school' TS that had surgery used the ladies.

I agree men need to budge over for this, not women.

I remember the reported outrage of the men at the ponds in London when the Man Friday campaign went swimming in the men's pond. Outrage because women were invading their space.

They hadn't been bothered about the sex segregation of the ponds until then, because their pond was the only to remain unisex.

There need to be campaigns telling men how to treat other men they perceive as weaker/odd, starting early in life, but with some zero tolerance at the current adult level. The drunk driving campaign coupled with strict penalties had a strong impact in changing behaviour. I've no doubt there are people out there who could make some inroads here.

I absolutely doubt the will though, because it relies on male behaviour change, and it's far easier to shame women into compliance.

Third space is a good idea, however, would not transwomen be offended by the idea of a third space? Surely, by using women only facilities they would feel more validated and more like a woman?

@JellySlice It seems inevitable that one day a woke tech organisation will programme an AI to recognise gender cues instead.

Now this one is definitely a moral maze question

@Emmmie

Third space is a good idea, however, would not transwomen be offended by the idea of a third space? Surely, by using women only facilities they would feel more validated and more like a woman?

It's actually transphobic to suggest 3rd spaces. As someone above said, pop on twitter and suggest it...or don't! 😉

ahumanfemale haha I am not suggesting anything. Just trying to understand

Does this all come down to the feelings in a man's head?

According to the trans ideology, yes.

Is a woman just a man without a penis? (A deficient man.)

According to many men, yes.

Something else to consider. There are women who do not feel comfortable wearing a bathing suit in front of men, for religious reasons or otherwise. This is why we are fortunate to have ladies only pools.

Once they let men who identify as women to share these spaces, many women (myself included) will never be able to swim again.

I am sure this is going to happen very soon. In fact, it is already happening.

@Emmmie

Something else to consider. There are women who do not feel comfortable wearing a bathing suit in front of men, for religious reasons or otherwise. This is why we are fortunate to have ladies only pools.

Once they let men who identify as women to share these spaces, many women (myself included) will never be able to swim again.

I am sure this is going to happen very soon. In fact, it is already happening.

That question always gets ignored. Particularly by trans allies. Their inclusivity means excluding many women and girls but that doesn't seem to matter.

Is a woman just a man without a penis?
If that is the case then people with a penis are men

@Packingsoapandwater

I find my line on this is informed by situations where females are extremely vulnerable.

I would not be happy about a GRC-holding transwoman providing intimate care to my elderly grandmother in her home, for example, such as changing her incontinence pads or cleaning her up after an incident of incontinence.

In my view, my grandmother has a right to insist that only a biological female provides that kind of care.

We also need to consider just where chaperones are seen as necessary in certain healthcare contexts and why.

This is why I think when we think aboit women holistically, your elderly mum, my autistic daughter, our vulnerable women who need a doctor or nurse to examine them or who are going into changing rooms or bathrooms - I don't want men in those spaces and I don't think it's right for other people to make those decisions for women. I wonder if lib fem women who don't mind are thinking about anyone apart from themselves and their own comfort levels. Someone mentioned on here about the old school transsexuals and I have always had a lot of respect and care for those individuals. I used to give a transsexual woman who lived in the flat upstairs some of my clothes. She and her male partner were lovely. Before cross dressing she was a very effeminate gay man. Very sweet. I hate that this has descended into something that is harming people like that. Third spaces and educating men needs to happen. Women aren't body shields and we need our own spaces.Trans people need dignity. Men need to take some responsibility. Unisex single cubicles with their own entries are more common in places I'm seeing. So no one has to share with anyone.

This is why I think when we think aboit women holistically, your elderly mum, my autistic daughter, our vulnerable women who need a doctor or nurse to examine them or who are going into changing rooms or bathrooms - I don't want men in those spaces and I don't think it's right for other people to make those decisions for women.

This

NOBODY has the right to give away my daughter's right to dignity.

If you don't mind, well... good for you. It doesn't give you the right to give away my daughter's or my mother's rights. EVER.