Educate me! Trans women who have undergone surgery accessing changing rooms, women's toilets...

[sandinmybellybutton]

So, I'm clear on where I stand with trans women who have not undergone any surgery accessing toilets, changing rooms, etc and women's "safe spaces.

But what about those who have had their male genitals removed and made a conscious effort to look like a woman? I know this does not change their biology but how does this impact on the argument about trans women posing a threat of violence to women in their spaces. I'm a wee bit torn on this one to be honest but am sure someone out there must have a good case to make either way to help me make up my mind.

Come educate me Ladies !

GC feminists on this board seem to like to avoid this question.

Nope. There is thread after thread where it is discussed. At length.

Because transactivists tend to this view this as a gotcha.

It isn't. Women do not pose the same threat.

Transactivists like to use gender ideology as the initial premise that leads to transmen in female toilets, and therefore men in female toilets.

No. The answer is no.

3) I draw no parallels between this scenario and the racial profiling I referred to in my curfew analogy other than that it's a hypothetical blanket rule against a subsection of society based on one (protected) characteristic
But again, the rule that men are not (using an example I really care about) incarcerated with women is NOT "against" a subsection of society. Men being incarcerated separate to women is just basic safeguarding of women (also a protected characteristic)
Your hypothetical example of black youths is irrelevant. Young black men being subjected to a curfew based on knife crime stats would be an abuse of human rights. Women (very vulnerable women in prison actually) are also subjected to an abuse of their human rights by being incarcerated with men. Men do not have a human right to use women's spaces. Your whole argument is based on nonsense.

@Thisfucker

Same here. No. Without any qualification, just No. I don't want to share Female single sex spaces with men. Face it, that's what trans women are.

🙄🙄

Single sex spaces need to remain single sex.

////

Agree 100%.

Why the hell do we even have to justify this view?

And to re-interate the original point - should transmen use the ladies? Where trans women go may not be women's problem to fix as they are biological men, but where transmen go is - they are biological women.

The main issue is where males must not go. And that is into female-only spaces.

That's because males who go into female-only spaces pose a risk not to themselves but to the females in those spaces. If females go into male-only spaces, they only put themselves at risk.

The issue is also not up to women to fix, but the law, which has already done so. So, here it is:

Legally, at least here in the UK, it is not allowed to exclude a female who identifies as trans from female-only spaces. That would be unlawful discrimination on the basis of sex.

It is also not allowed to force a female who identifies as trans to use female-only spaces, that would again be unlawful discrimination, but this time on the basis of gender reassignment.

However, to exclude a female who identifies as trans from male-only spaces is lawful discrimination on the basis of sex. Because males have a right to the same single-sex spaces as women where privacy is an issue.

In order to ensure that a female who identifies as trans is not unlawfully discriminated against on the basis of either sex or gender reassignment, the law in question - the Equality Act 2010 - states that alternatives should be offered instead.

(As you can see, third spaces is not a solution first proposed by women's rights groups and campaigners but one advocated for in UK equality law.)

P.S. The legal situation changes slightly if a female who identifies as trans is in possession of a Gender Recognition Certificate as under the Gender Recognition Act 2004, such an individual is now biologically female but legally male.

How a female who is legally male is treated then depends on whether a single-sex provision decides access based on biological sex or legal sex.

What this means in practice, where alternatives are not always available, is that females who identify as trans retain the legal right to use a female-only space. And while they can legally be excluded from a male-only space, it is unlikely that they will because they do not pose a risk to males in male-only spaces. In contrast to males in female-only spaces.

Thus, it is their choice which space to use, limited only by the lack of freely available alternatives.

Typically, many females who identify as trans and who are medically transitioning are very aware of when they make other females uncomfortable and will then seek to chose an alternative if one is available and if not, may decide to use a male-only space. At their own risk.

I hope that this answers your question.

I don't struggle with this.

They're still men, albeit men who have undergone extensive surgery.

So no. They should use the gent's.

You don't throw safeguarding out the window just because some people had themselves surgically altered to create the illusion of having changed sex.

Third spaces have absolutely been discussed and rejected by activists but I think some transwomen like Fionne have a petition running to ask for exactly that. Third spaces.

And I have seen time and time again, trans people saying that if women don’t want male bodies people in their single sex space that WE women must apply our energy to it. The answer there is a firm no. This is not a task for females, this is for the trans community and allies to get done.

@Skyliner001

Literally no issue at all with a TW in the ladies.

Bully for you. What about other women? Women who are unable to have TW in their toilets, because it triggers the PTSD from when they were attacked, or because their religion forbids it? Or the women who just do not want TW in a same sex space? Do they not matter?

What about other women? Women who are unable to have TW in their toilets, because it triggers the PTSD from when they were attacked, or because their religion forbids it? Or the women who just do not want TW in a same sex space?

I don’t want pre op trans women in female toilets, not sure of my feelings on post op. But I have seen it argued that the religious thing is a similar thing. It’s just an ideology, just one that happens to be a protected characteristic.

It's a straightforward no from me.

Yes, I know some perfectly nice transwomen.

But I'm putting my safety, & my daughters' safety (& frankly our sex based rights as women) first.

So we are done with discussing this. Female spaces are just for females. That's my line.

Anyone who wants unisex additional spaces, cool. Good idea. I'll back them.

But sexed spaces - no. Not my lovely trans women friends, or anyone elses.

& if NO is a problem, then the problem is entirely with anyone not hearing our NO.

It's a NO & that really needs to be heard.

To answer all the really baffling conundrums presented ont thread:

No, experimental cosmetic surgery on genitalia is not something I think is right to demand or encourage in any circumstance, and such a rule of access would truly be impossible to police. Males in any physical condition have no right to access provision for females.

And, to reiterate, for the millionth time, third spaces. Feel completely free to put your weight behind that campaign. My limited time is taken up defending women's access to single sex spaces, so I've not got owt to spare for that, but you go right ahead.

@Winesalot

Third spaces have absolutely been discussed and rejected by activists but I think some transwomen like Fionne have a petition running to ask for exactly that. Third spaces.

And I have seen time and time again, trans people saying that if women don’t want male bodies people in their single sex space that WE women must apply our energy to it. The answer there is a firm no. This is not a task for females, this is for the trans community and allies to get done.

There's a thread with a link on the MN Petitions and Activism board - which if often worth a riffle through as all petition threads get shuffled off there..

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

And, to reiterate, for the millionth time, third spaces. Feel completely free to put your weight behind that campaign. My limited time is taken up defending women's access to single sex spaces, so I've not got owt to spare for that, but you go right ahead.

But surely it makes sense to ‘put your weight behind the campaign for third spaces’ as it goes hand in hand with trans women not being in women’s spaces.
When you say you’re limited time is taken up by defending women’s access to single sex spaces, what do you mean? What do you actually do? I’d think it would be a good use of time to put my energy into pushing third spaces.

As was mildly discussed upthread

the introduction of accessible facilities
toilets, dropped kerbs, wider doors, level thresholds
were as a result of actions by wheelchair bound campaigners
but benefited many, many other people

the acceptance of gay relationships
*benefited everybody who did not want to live a 1950's stereotype

WHO BENEFITS from what the TRAs want?
All I see is a list of people who are harmed
but little or no real gain even for the TRAs themselves

I don't know about you but I have a full time job, kids, hobbies and ageing parents. What do I actually do? Keep the effing world turning love, like every other middle age woman!
If men who want to be women want third spaces to pee, what the hell does that have to do with me? Good luck to them. Women's spaces are for women, in law.

I don't know about you but I have a full time job, kids, hobbies and ageing parents. What do I actually do? Keep the effing world turning love, like every other middle age woman!

Is that a response to me? If so, I was asking the pp in regards to what she does to defend women’s access to single sex spaces as she implied this takes up her time but doesn’t involve pushing for a third space. I see campaigning for a third space as a way of keeping single sex spaces for women.

@BadTattoosAndSmellLikeBooze

And, to reiterate, for the millionth time, third spaces. Feel completely free to put your weight behind that campaign. My limited time is taken up defending women's access to single sex spaces, so I've not got owt to spare for that, but you go right ahead.

But surely it makes sense to ‘put your weight behind the campaign for third spaces’ as it goes hand in hand with trans women not being in women’s spaces.
When you say you’re limited time is taken up by defending women’s access to single sex spaces, what do you mean? What do you actually do? I’d think it would be a good use of time to put my energy into pushing third spaces.

You can do as you wish, as I said. And no, I don't think I will be outlining the extremely outing activities I'm part of on a public board much viewed by people who wouldn't think twice before doxxing me or worse.

But if you'd like to consider me a feminist mastermind with pull to rival Julie Bindel's lesbian bride-finding empire, you might be on the money. Or I might be an ordinary working mother with limited time and resources and having done this for some time, not much patience with being told where I'm supposed to be directing my energy.

A reasonable question might be "Whose job is it to find places for men to go who don't feel happy sharing with the other men" Why is it up to women to find a solution at all?

Btw all this talk of third spaces.

#1 Surely only new buildings would have somewhere to put them.
#2 I suspect transmen won't want to share with transwomen and I wouldn't blame them.
#3 I doubt you'd find many transwomen willing to use a third space either since the whole point is to be in the women's spaces.

@BadTattoosAndSmellLikeBooze

I don't know about you but I have a full time job, kids, hobbies and ageing parents. What do I actually do? Keep the effing world turning love, like every other middle age woman!

Is that a response to me? If so, I was asking the pp in regards to what she does to defend women’s access to single sex spaces as she implied this takes up her time but doesn’t involve pushing for a third space. I see campaigning for a third space as a way of keeping single sex spaces for women.

Campaigning for a third space is the quickest route to being called a transphobic bigot. Being harangued as to why you don't think transwomen are women and possibly threatened.

Few transwoman want it. It's been suggested and violently rejected many times.

It's not about the space. It's about the women in that space. There is no validation to be had from a space that is not female only.

Try suggesting it on Twitter.

Lookat :

But surely it makes sense to ‘put your weight behind the campaign for third spaces’ as it goes hand in hand with trans women not being in women’s spaces.
When you say you’re limited time is taken up by defending women’s access to single sex spaces, what do you mean? What do you actually do? I’d think it would be a good use of time to put my energy into pushing third spaces
Who are you? And what right do you have to tell anyone how to organise their time. What women do and how they support other women really isn't your concern.
If you think it would be a good use of your time to support the push for third spaces, go for it. In fact why are you wasting your time here. Off you go and put your energy to work.

Whose job is it to find places for men to go who don't feel happy sharing with the other men
THIS

@Skyliner001 Surely you can understand many women are not ok with it. Simply saying you are does not change that.

Women’s spaces are not yours to give away.