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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Educate me! Trans women who have undergone surgery accessing changing rooms, women's toilets...

224 replies

sandinmybellybutton · 08/08/2020 11:35

So, I'm clear on where I stand with trans women who have not undergone any surgery accessing toilets, changing rooms, etc and women's "safe spaces.

But what about those who have had their male genitals removed and made a conscious effort to look like a woman? I know this does not change their biology but how does this impact on the argument about trans women posing a threat of violence to women in their spaces. I'm a wee bit torn on this one to be honest but am sure someone out there must have a good case to make either way to help me make up my mind.

Come educate me Ladies !Grin

OP posts:
charlestonchaplin · 08/08/2020 13:06

Ceto
You are naive. Most transgender males go through puberty and puberty leaves a big impression on males. Few post-pubertal males pass in real life.

ListeningQuietly · 08/08/2020 13:06

The Trans person I know uses the ladies loos in pubs and restaurants.
They had full surgery 30 years ago
and were very feminine looking even beforehand.
Before I knew her history I assumed she was a bit odd
but most people do not / would not guess she was born a man.
BUT
she is part of a very very small minority.

amusedtodeath1 · 08/08/2020 13:06

As long as they've been through the psychological assessment and passed I'm okay with them using our bathrooms, but self ID? Forget it! No way!

rabbitwoman · 08/08/2020 13:09

I know, love and trust many men and boys - my dad, my brothers, my nephews, many male friends. I would not want to share changing or toilet facilities with any of them, the only exception being my husband. This is not because I am scared of sexual assault or any other behaviour, its simply because of dignity and privacy.

If I would not want to share these facilities with men I love and trust, why would I want to share those facilities with men I don't know!?

And that's where this will end up, unisex facilities. Except men will keep their same sex spaces simply because they can pee standing up and can use urinals, and a room of urinals has many practical advantages for anyone paying for installing and maintaining those facilities - so women will lose out in every way whilst men continue getting their needs catered for.

Notice that trans men just do not seem to impede on this at all. Wonder why!?

Kit19 · 08/08/2020 13:10

I used to be “oh well post op is ok” but my stance has changed a lot

As PP said, surgery doesn’t alter sex & feminism is about centering women. Allowing TW into women’s single sex spaces is purely for their benefit not women’s so why would I?

Also the “oh we’ve been doing it for years and you never noticed” argument. We did notice, we can tell, we were just being nice & kind. That kindness got thrown back in our faces with ever increasing demands shouted ever loudly accompanied with threats & harassment so now I’m firmly “this is men’s issue to sort”. Men can learn to be accommodating & nice to TW

Flippin · 08/08/2020 13:11

It is not possible to change sex. Women deserve spaces and awards on the basis of their sex. It is also important for the sake of safety and dignity. This is my position.

AfterSchoolWorry · 08/08/2020 13:12

@Branleuse

Tbh, I never cared about TW using womens loos when I thought that was what it meant. That they had had surgery etc. Thats not whats happening
Exactly.
Fairenuff · 08/08/2020 13:18

@amusedtodeath1

As long as they've been through the psychological assessment and passed I'm okay with them using our bathrooms, but self ID? Forget it! No way!
What psychological assessment?
Barracker · 08/08/2020 13:21

Educate you?

I, my daughter, every woman, every girl has a right to say no to men. Every man. And I have.

Consent 101.
No means no.

wellbehavedwomen · 08/08/2020 13:21

@catpoooffender

Actually you are applying it to individuals. You're saying that because men and trans women as a group commit X% of crimes, that means that individuals who are transwomen are Y times more likely to commit a crime than ciswomen. And on that basis they should not be allowed to use female spaces. To me that's not very different from saying because that in London, young black men commit a higher percentage of knife crime than young white men, individual young black men should be subject to a curfew. You're using population-wide statistics to justify placing restrictions on individuals.
You don't think women should have any single sex provision at all, because Not All Men Are Like That? Are you serious?
catpoooffender · 08/08/2020 13:49

@wellbehavedwomen yeah cause that's what I said 🙄

titchy · 08/08/2020 13:51

@Ceto

I have no problem at all with post-operative trans women in female toilets and changing room. Face it, I wouldn't even know they were there.
Of course you would - it's pretty easy to tell.

With apologies if you are visually impaired.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/08/2020 13:54

I used to be OK about it.

My attitude has gone to full exclusion as creating edge cases has emboldened people who are not acting in good faith.

Barracker had some excellent posts on this topic. Accommodating other people's self-delusions on this matter is causing harm to women as a sex class.

EdgeOfACoin · 08/08/2020 13:57

So just checking, Catpoo, you believe that all single-sex spaces should be abolished and everything from toilets to gym changing rooms should be mixed sex?

IfNotNowThen2 · 08/08/2020 13:57

Actually you are applying it to individuals. You're saying that because men and trans women as a group commit X% of crimes, that means that individuals who are transwomen are Y times more likely to commit a crime than ciswomen. And on that basis they should not be allowed to use female spaces. To me that's not very different from saying because that in London, young black men commit a higher percentage of knife crime than young white men, individual young black men should be subject to a curfew. You're using population-wide statistics to justify placing restrictions on individuals.

It is completely different in so many ways..
Imposing a curfew of young black men (who possibly get convicted of more charges of possessing a knife-a crime-than young white men because they are stopped by police a Hell of a lot more) would be curtailing their freedom, and stopping them from doing something the majority of them obviously ought to be able to do, e.g stay out as late as they like with no interference from the state.
Stopping men using women's facilities is NOT stopping them doing something they have a reasonable human right to do!
What do you mean "allowed to use female spaces"? Allowed by who? I have never "allowed" this. This has never been "allowed" by any women, it's just something we very, very occasionally put up with, because we were being nice (big mistake, huge.)
Or do you mean allowed by other men? Because our spaces are not theirs to give access to.
Please don't equate the fact that women have the legal right to single sex spaces with racism or bigotry, it is deeply ignorant.

JellyFishSquish · 08/08/2020 14:02

[quote catpoooffender]@wellbehavedwomen yeah cause that's what I said 🙄[/quote]
That's what I took you to mean. If you feel that transwomen should be allowed in women's spaces, how does that not throw out single sex provision? Because even with no ill wishes towards transwomen-- they are in fact men. They just are. I am not trying to be hateful or goady, I am just suggesting that men allowed in women's spaces mean the spaces are not single sex anymore.

QuentinWinters · 08/08/2020 14:06

I think I come at this from a slightly different angle. SRS is invasive, dangerous and creates a neo vagina that requires lifelong maintenance with various issues. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to have to go down that path to "prove" they are transgender.

This is a problem TRAs have created by demanding access to spaces based on feelings. Personally I'm still totally happy to share space with trans women, in the same way I always have. I just want to have barriers for predators, voyeurs, perverts etc. Until TRAs recognise that and come up with a solution that isn't "suck it up buttercup, there is no risk" then I'm saying no males in female spaces. Regardless of surgery. I feel terribly for trans women caught up in this, but they need to stand with us and say "not in my name". Rather than side with these ridiculous demands that feelings trump biology.

Annasgirl · 08/08/2020 14:08

@Datun

A man without a penis isn't a woman.

I'm baffled that women who say they understand, still fail to understand this.

Women are, strangely, human beings in their own right. As a concept, an entity, a physical presence and a material reality. They share characteristics which put them in the same category.

They're not service humans. Or support beings. They are not there to validate the feelings of men, however they identify. It seems quite a few people have a lot of trouble understanding this.

Women's spaces are for women to occupy, largely when they are at their most vulnerable. Not vulnerable to dogs, snakes, or scorpions. Vulnerable to the opposite sex.

It takes a mind wholly disinterested in women to imagine that their spaces are designed to actually validate the opposite sex.

And this, dear OP, is all you need to know. There is no complex argument needed, although the amount of time and effort I expend on this with friends and colleagues, would make you wonder how easily people lose the capacity for critical thinking.
CantThinkOfACleverOne · 08/08/2020 14:30

Having read through all the comments on this thread (and similar previous ones on FWR), the one question that nobody seems to address is which toilets should transmen be using?

If it's based just on biological sex, then they should be using the women's, right? So if women see what to all intents and purposes looks like a man in the women's loos they should assume they're a transman and leave them alone, but if they look like a man in female drag they should assume they're a trans woman and confront them?

Seems to me that it would make it easier for men looking to rape or assault women to invade women's spaces, rather than harder.

EdgeOfACoin · 08/08/2020 14:36

CantThink, perhaps you could start your own thread on that?

It's a separate issue.

Datun · 08/08/2020 14:38

[quote catpoooffender]@wellbehavedwomen yeah cause that's what I said 🙄[/quote]
If you are advocating for certain men to use female facilities, then that makes them mixed sex.

If you don't agree that every single woman who uses those facilities needs to consent first, that's using them without their consent.

If that's not what you mean, then perhaps you need to explain again.

wellbehavedwomen · 08/08/2020 15:01

[quote catpoooffender]@wellbehavedwomen yeah cause that's what I said 🙄[/quote]
But it is what you said. Exactly and precisely. You said you can't judge individuals by group risk profile. We can't say that any group more likely to be criminal can be excluded. But that's the entire focus of single sex provision - that we do judge individual men by their group behaviour, and risk. And I'd also point out that your analogy is wholly incorrect: black people suffer from systemic disadvantage and discrimination at the hands of white people, as classes, just as women suffer systemic disadvantage and discrimination at the hands of men. Black people are no more likely to be a risk to anyone - it's pretty racist to claim otherwise. Men legitimately do pose a massively greater risk. There are 100 men in jail for sex offending for every woman. Almost all serious violence is perpetrated by men. And the perpetration rate is the same, whether or not a male identifies as a woman. They pose the same statistical risk. So again: are you opposed to single sex provision, or not?

You seem to be saying that if man claims a feminine gender identity, suddenly the fact that that person poses the same risk as before doesn't matter. You are saying all women should take a random, unknown man's word for it that they're really a woman, even as you admit they pose the same risk as any other man.

So what is your definition of a woman, then? An idea in someone's head? A collection of stereotypes? What? How can a male person know they're a woman? They've never been one, so what is it they think 'being a woman' even is? What does transition mean? It's a genuine question, because I've seen this asked so often, and there's never an answer that isn't circular ("a woman is someone who feels like a woman" "Yes, but what is a woman?" ) or a collection of stereotypes. The only solid answer is 'a member of the female sex'. Which is not the answer you are arguing, is it? What are you arguing, if you believe human beings can literally be women when they are men? In what way is that possible, other than a kind and polite fiction in order to help and support people who struggle with society's rigid gender roles - something most decent people will, of course, be on board with, where nobody else is harmed?

It just reads as if you're going to blindly prioritise and privilege male wants, and pleas for sympathy, while impatiently brushing aside women's very real, very well-evidenced, and very serious concerns. Why don't women matter?

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 08/08/2020 15:02

Having read through all the comments on this thread (and similar previous ones on FWR), the one question that nobody seems to address is which toilets should transmen be using

I’ve seen it addressed a number of times, the answers vary (obviously, though i know some posters think FWR have a hive mind)

So they range through , 3rd space, the women's toilet, if they pass the mens toilet, And there are a few more that ive probably missed

Datun · 08/08/2020 15:07

You seem to be saying that if man claims a feminine gender identity, suddenly the fact that that person poses the same risk as before doesn't matter. You are saying all women should take a random, unknown man's word for it that they're really a woman, even as you admit they pose the same risk as any other man.

Indeed.

It's so mind blowing, to me, that the facilities women need, through no fault of their own, and had to work bloody hard for, purely in order to lead normal lives and be protected because of their sex, should now be repurposed as a validation tool, for the very people they they were provided to protect us from in the first place.

Datun · 08/08/2020 15:08

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Having read through all the comments on this thread (and similar previous ones on FWR), the one question that nobody seems to address is which toilets should transmen be using

I’ve seen it addressed a number of times, the answers vary (obviously, though i know some posters think FWR have a hive mind)

So they range through , 3rd space, the women's toilet, if they pass the mens toilet, And there are a few more that ive probably missed

Exactly. There are a number of ways of managing transmen. None of which include allowing all female spaces to suddenly become mixed sex.