Educate me! Trans women who have undergone surgery accessing changing rooms, women's toilets...

[sandinmybellybutton]

So, I'm clear on where I stand with trans women who have not undergone any surgery accessing toilets, changing rooms, etc and women's "safe spaces.

But what about those who have had their male genitals removed and made a conscious effort to look like a woman? I know this does not change their biology but how does this impact on the argument about trans women posing a threat of violence to women in their spaces. I'm a wee bit torn on this one to be honest but am sure someone out there must have a good case to make either way to help me make up my mind.

Come educate me Ladies !

• secondly to keep the women in their life safe, their daughters in women’s toilets by keeping men’s toilets safe is what I meant to write there.

catpoo
Some women have made this feeling clear. You don't speak for all of us.

It is enough that some women are opposed to males in women’s spaces. The question posed by the OP is somewhat academic anyway as it is impossible to know which transgender males have or have not had their genitals removed.

Given the quantity of threads on the subject matter it's easy enough to educate oneself. One doesn't need to post a thread and let others do the work for one.

I’ve read lots of threads on this subject and think I’ve got a good grasp on the main issues. However I’m still not sure of my view on post op trans women using changing rooms and toilets so I think it’s good that the question has been asked as a stand alone question to hear people’s views on it without it being mixed in with everything else.

I’ve seen lots of posters asking valid questions and they get attitudes like titchys. I think many women are put off from asking and commenting because of this. They probably hold similar views to those on this board if only they weren’t treated like a troll by the ‘experts’ for not knowing or reading everything before they dare to post.

A female single sex space is just that. No debate. However is a Jaffa cake a cake or a biscuit.? Now that's a debate.

@catpoooffender

Actually you are applying it to individuals. You're saying that because men and trans women as a group commit X% of crimes, that means that individuals who are transwomen are Y times more likely to commit a crime than ciswomen. And on that basis they should not be allowed to use female spaces. To me that's not very different from saying because that in London, young black men commit a higher percentage of knife crime than young white men, individual young black men should be subject to a curfew. You're using population-wide statistics to justify placing restrictions on individuals.

No one is restricting transwomen from going to the toilet and getting changed. Not a single person.

I don't think your first sentence makes sense. People can be divided into any subsection of society according to their characteristics - whether that's race, gender, religion, age, socioeconomic background etc.. Each of those groups will have different 'levels' of criminality, so it's meaningless to apply those 'levels' to individuals.

But we’re not applying them to individuals, that is the whole point. You don’t write laws based on individuals. Dave now Davina down the road from your mum might be lovely but males as a sex class are a danger.

In answer to the OP, no. Regardless of the surgery they are not women. You can’t very well ask people if they’ve had surgery so it needs to be a blanket ban on males in female spaces.

@Datun I didn't say you were. You know exactly what I meant.

Alsooooo - from my research and reading in this area, it has become obvious that there is a dype of sexual activity that actively involves men dressing as women. Cross dressing, autogynaphelia, kink - whatever. Don't care - but this is a private practise that you should be doing with consenting partners.

There are also a lot of individuals who get a thrill, a kick, out of making other people feel uncomfortable, out of violating boundaries, out of asserting control and bullying others. They may choose many ways to do this - and here is a new way, by pushing your way into female spaces not meant for you. The kick is from making other people feel uncomfortable and helpless, the method is only a secondary consideration.

These two types of behavior often conflate. It boggles my mind that it's so blatent and obvious and yet no one is assessing this risk!!!

It is awful, and very unfair, that there are some genuinely gentle, kind, wonderful people who struggle with their gender identity caught in the middle of this war with narcissists, abusers and bullies.

In the real world we don't judge Sex by chromosomes do we? We judge by external genitalia. We sex babies at birth by what's between their legs, not by a blood test.

I would be inclined to think that post op trans women should be given a little more concession than pre op TW, but not in the arena of sports or vulnerable spaces.

It's comes down to risk assessment. If it's a space where having a penis makes you a risk, but make privilege doesn't, then I would give the concession.

It could be policed by giving people gender reassignment certificates. Would end up being quite "othering" I guess, but if that's what it takes I think people would concede. It would be like the prove 25 checks for alcohol

@IfNotNowThen2

I don't think it's complicated at all. There are 2 sexes. We have facilities for both, for good reasons. Men who look feminine and have problems using male facilities (and they do exist) will have to find a solution to that which doesn't involve all female private spaces becoming unisex-because allowing some men access makes every female space automatically unisex. I am not scared of men, I rarely feel unsafe around them (lot's of women do though) so that's not even my issue. I just have the right , in law, to change, take refuge and go to prison in places where there are no men at all in there with me. I don't need a reason. I don't need to ask permission, or justify this with a story of past abuse, or inspect anyone's genitals. If a man truly passes as a woman (unusual) and gets away with using female facilities, then hooray for him, he has fooled me I am genuinely sorry for men who feel unsafe around other men, but that is their problem to solve, just like women worked hard on trying to solve things like places for domestic abuse victims to go and be safe, for example. Men have walked on the moon, they have the capacity to solve their own problems. This is not women's problem, it is not up to us to fix it. We have plenty of problems of our own to be going on with.

“Men have walked on the moon, they have capacity to solve their own problems.” This along with “The safe space is safe not because there’s Hogwarts Style Male Ejection Devices but... etc ” has made this whole thread for me.

Passing transwomen can use whatever space they like as they always have. There's no way to stop them.

Yes and people break the law because they can get away with it. But that doesn’t mean it is ok for them to do so.

Those who have not undergone surgery and still have a penis should not be in women's spaces, whereas those who have I think should be allowed to. With the exception of some medical situations and refuges/rape crisis centres.

Female spaces are females spaces. We shouldn’t be rewarding males who perform femininity sufficiently (who decides?) by giving them access to female spaces, especially when a sizeable proportion of females object, especially when we object on sound grounds.

In the real world we don't judge Sex by chromosomes do we? We judge by external genitalia. We sex babies at birth by what's between their legs, not by a blood test.

In the real world we don’t need to see external genitalia to know which sex someone is. We know from posture, gait, smell, voice, demeanour, and thousands of other little tells.

They have yet to manage to produce an AI programme that distinguishes transwomen from other men but they can tell men and women apart and none of those programmes look at genitalia.

@rabbitwoman

Alsooooo - from my research and reading in this area, it has become obvious that there is a dype of sexual activity that actively involves men dressing as women. Cross dressing, autogynaphelia, kink - whatever. Don't care - but this is a private practise that you should be doing with consenting partners.

There are also a lot of individuals who get a thrill, a kick, out of making other people feel uncomfortable, out of violating boundaries, out of asserting control and bullying others. They may choose many ways to do this - and here is a new way, by pushing your way into female spaces not meant for you. The kick is from making other people feel uncomfortable and helpless, the method is only a secondary consideration.

These two types of behavior often conflate. It boggles my mind that it's so blatent and obvious and yet no one is assessing this risk!!!

It is awful, and very unfair, that there are some genuinely gentle, kind, wonderful people who struggle with their gender identity caught in the middle of this war with narcissists, abusers and bullies.

I've also been made aware of period fetish and toilet fetish from reading up on this. Things that I would not have contemplated before. Dropping boundaries opens up to so many things that many people are not aware of.

I didn't say you were. You know exactly what I meant

Yes we know what you meant. The usual so called argument that implies that being treated like animals and sold as commodities or denied basic rights like walking into a shop is somehow exactly the same as a male person being denied the right to undress infront of unconsenting women and girls.

They have the right to access the facility fir their sex. Just like everyone else. They are not denied the right to participate in life the way people of colour were/are

[quote catpoooffender]@Datun I didn't say you were. You know exactly what I meant.[/quote]
I think what you mean couldn't be clearer.

The answer, certainly from me, and very many other women, is no.

I would be inclined to think that post op trans women should be given a little more concession than pre op TW, but not in the arena of sports or vulnerable spaces.
That is pretty much how I feel. I am really torn by this: I do not want to make anyone's life unnecessarily harder than it needs to be, whether that life is a woman's life or a transwoman's life.

Do we know the rates of offending by post-op TW? Because that must also be a consideration. Or is that the sort of data that isn't collected because sensitivity or something?

Oh, and catpoo, why do you think males and females are segregated anyway in intimate spaces like toilets, changing rooms, hostels and hospital wards?

I think women have too much to loose by compromising the position of segregation by sex as boundaries are bound to be pushed.
Passing trans women always have used female facilities.
Add one toilet for mixed sex, a third space rather than making women’s facilities unisex.
Changing rooms/prisons/sports by sex only.

Worth considering that when a man assaults a woman, the assault doesn’t usually start with his penis. It starts with his sense of entitlement, his socialisation, and continues through his height, his mass, his large frame, his hands.

Are they proposing to remove those?

I have no problem at all with post-operative trans women in female toilets and changing room. Face it, I wouldn't even know they were there.

I don't have a problem with someone who has fully transitioned to female being in a women only space. I expect this is more to me being tolerant and trusting of men than others.

I also don't think it fair to insist that they only use men only spaces. A neutral option is, to me, acceptable as long as it doesn't eliminate the women/men only spaces. I've been in neutral spaces - including saunas/spas where there is full nudity and have fortunately found them generally more polite places than some which are women only.

@Ceto

I have no problem at all with post-operative trans women in female toilets and changing room. Face it, I wouldn't even know they were there.

Really?

That's not my experience.