For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

I think all the wokeness comes from a place of ideology, a place where misogyny doesn’t exist. It’s a shame the youth can grasp the idea of oppression and privilege when it comes to BLM, but they can’t grasp it when it comes to understanding the history of how men have treated women.

My two are - sadly - totally woke. I can't discuss it with them because I refuse to be pigeon-holed as a narrow-minded old reactionary. They are both intelligent and I trust in time they will understand. What I do is stand up for women's rights at all times. TBH I would love to have the conversation with DS1 as he is so pompously self-righteous about transrights but he is gay and I would hate him to think there is any residual homophobia in my argument. There is none whatsoever.

Johnathen Pie's take on woke culture

@Justhadathought as you did before. The future is theirs to shape as they wish as it is with every generation. That is why very few of us share the values and attitudes of our grand parents and great grand parents.

We are being forced to go along with the emperor's new clothes.

I have a mix here. The recent grad said she kept her head down about being GC for fear of having it bitten off.

To me woke implies possessing a degree of sanctimonious, ignorant, puritanical bullshit. I'm sure a lot of woke people want to be genuinely kind, but they are propping up a whole social media culture that allows those who won't conform to be doxxed and threatened. A lot of them seem quite removed from the realities of life.

Mine are genderists, unfortunately. They are also anti-white and ageist. One has qualms about transwomen being 'lesbians'. I didn't bring them up to reject material reality. Peer and online influence is really strong. I'd like to know the qualities/experiences/environments young people who are free thinkers on these topics have in common. There must be factors that protect young adults from group think.

Do they have any strong feelings about the discrimination disabled people face? I'm curious because as other posters have pointed out that seems to be a topic that wokesters are curiously uninterested in. I suspect it's because it's not "cool enough" and won't get them enough brownie points.
It does tick me off, seeing people fall over themselves to be "inclusive" to trans people whilst disabled people are still excluded and go ignored.

As for what protects young adults from group think, that is a very interesting point to consider. Neither of my younger brothers buy into any of this stuff, which is something I'm really relieved about because the oldest is autistic and gay. Both have special needs and neither were educated in a mainstream environment for secondary school. They also have a limited social circle and most importantly have never been allowed free reign in regards to the internet and social media. Living in a working class area helps too, you won't find many people interested in this nonsense around here.

We’ve also had ‘wokedom’, ‘wokerati’, ‘wokeness’ and ‘woke culture’

I’ve recently been helping someone complete an application to join the council housing register.

One of the questions was “Is your gender identity the same as the gender you were assigned at birth?”

I contacted the council to ask them to explain what this meant. I was told it meant “Are you transgender?” I asked why the question couldn’t just be “Are you transgender?” and I was told that transgender people might find that question too intrusive.

You couldn’t make this bullshit up.

I asked why the question couldn’t just be “Are you transgender?” and I was told that transgender people might find that question too intrusive.

Words fail me.

I am disabled. I would far sooner tick a box that said “Are you disabled?” Than wade through a load of waffly shite.

Redtrees

Have you had any thoughts about the dictionary definition of woman yet? Yay or nay?

I’ve recently been helping someone complete an application to join the council housing register. One of the questions was “Is your gender identity the same as the gender you were assigned at birth?”

And what exactly does that have to do with needing to be housed? I mean why do they need to know that? Also, that wording isn't very helpful for anyone with English as a second language, has literacy issues or a learning disability. But hey, what do they matter, as long as trans people don't find the questions "intrusive." 😡

I've a 14 year old and a 17 year old. Both know it's absolute nonsense. My 14 year old did tentatively ask me I was transphobic once and I explained my concerns to her. Once I told her about the huge rise in young girls identifying as Male and what that means with regards to their future health the drugs and surgery that obliterates fertility, she understood my concerns. My oldest has been home educated but the home ed scene is incredibly woke where we are so it's not like he hasn't come across what he is expected to believe by his peers. He doesn't though, just keeps very quiet on it. He's off to college later this year so may be influenced to believe the impossible there but he's a sensible lad so we will see.

Some months ago, before lockdown, I was browsing what is now known as the 'gender studies' section of Blackwell's ( university bookshop). This is the section in which you might hope to find classic feminist texts which would have been essential reading for previous generations of Sociology and Women's studies students.

Alas, most key texts are now missing. Certainly no Andrea Dworkin, or even 'Man Made Language' ( Dale Spender). In their place are lots of trans affirmative texts. I brought this up with a member of staff. i said i thought it quite concerning that today's students were not being provided with a suitable diverse and challenging set of texts; and that today's young lesbians, for example, would have no awareness of the history of lesbian activism and struggle. I named some texts I thought they should be stocking.

He said he'd "speak to the LGBT officer". It seems the gender studies section now only has texts which are ratified and approved. Same in Waterstones. Try getting hold of anything by Sheila Jeffreys. You'll be out of luck.

@Justhadathought as you did before. The future is theirs to shape as they wish as it is with every generation. That is why very few of us share the values and attitudes of our grand parents and great grand parents

But you don't get to impose it on others.

Values, by the way, tend to be eternal, even if attitudes aren't.

And what exactly does that have to do with needing to be housed? I mean why do they need to know that? Also, that wording isn't very helpful for anyone with English as a second language, has literacy issues or a learning disability. But hey, what do they matter, as long as trans people don't find the questions "intrusive."

The person I was helping does have EAL. We chose “Prefer not to say” because the other options were “Yes” or “No”. But even that’s wrong, and you couldn't leave it blank.

They are both intelligent and I trust in time they will understand. What I do is stand up for women's rights at all times

I must have been utterly intolerable at that age. So sure was I that I was right. I jacked in my a levels ( Politics/Sociology/Psychology) to go and live on the side of a road outside of a nuclear base.Youthful idealism is a great driver; but real life eventually catches up with you.

Sorry but what is TWAW?

@CasuallyMasculine the dictionary definition is “an adult female human being”.

That's what I'm hoping @Justhadathought. And I was insufferable at that age too. It's part of the job of adolescence.

The problem is that sexism is rarely overt at university level; the gender pay gap, mummy track and discrimination really kick in at a later date.

@EdgeOfACoin

Tbh *@RedtreesRedtrees* I wish they would put forward credible arguments in favour of the non-gc perspective.

I came to these boards agnostic about the whole thing. I've seen plenty of arguments but the non-gc case seems to boil down to 'but my trans friend is really nice'. I would actually like to hear something with more substance.

A non-circular definition of the word 'woman' (or 'man' for that matter) would be nice for starters, but I know I'm not going to get that.

Genuinely happy to be enlightened.

I think this is the perspective of most of us.

As for us not having a range of diverse views - that's hilarious. It's not the first time I've heard the idea that if you agree with someone on one thing it means you have to agree on everything, and vice-versa.

Honestly, the women on FWR have been arguing with each other for years. We are fully formed human beings perfectly capable of agreeing on some things and disagreeing on others. The fact that many of us agree that sex exists and that gender is harmful doesn't mean we agree on everything and it's ridiculous that I even have to say that.

@JanMeyer

Mine are genderists, unfortunately. They are also anti-white and ageist. One has qualms about transwomen being 'lesbians'. I didn't bring them up to reject material reality. Peer and online influence is really strong. I'd like to know the qualities/experiences/environments young people who are free thinkers on these topics have in common. There must be factors that protect young adults from group think.

Do they have any strong feelings about the discrimination disabled people face? I'm curious because as other posters have pointed out that seems to be a topic that wokesters are curiously uninterested in. I suspect it's because it's not "cool enough" and won't get them enough brownie points.
It does tick me off, seeing people fall over themselves to be "inclusive" to trans people whilst disabled people are still excluded and go ignored.

As for what protects young adults from group think, that is a very interesting point to consider. Neither of my younger brothers buy into any of this stuff, which is something I'm really relieved about because the oldest is autistic and gay. Both have special needs and neither were educated in a mainstream environment for secondary school. They also have a limited social circle and most importantly have never been allowed free reign in regards to the internet and social media. Living in a working class area helps too, you won't find many people interested in this nonsense around here.

One has strong feelings on disability issues; interestingly, she is the less 'woke'.

I agree that being working class and having limited access to social media mitigate risk. Mine didn't have early access and had a non-standard educational upbringing - and yet still developed in group attitudes at University.

My sister has done a complete 180
on her wokeness after my mother and I encouraged her to research it and sent her a number of articles. My sister is bisexual and the majority of her friendship group are from the LGB community before doing her research she just blindly accepted what her friends where posting online.