For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

late mid 20s here and left university a few years ago, I am in the very very small minority among my peers in believing we need to be looking more closely at what is going on and being critical of the way the trans movement is progressing. I generally have the view of people can do and be whoever they like providing it is not harming anybody else therefore I couldn't really care less if someone wants to call themselves a woman or a man or a goat. Where I take issue is with the erasure of safe spaces, i'm sure their are many genuinely trans people about who pose no threat but the concept of self ID and the increasing number of places now being gender blind etc erase those spaces.
My university town was pretty darn liberal and it was very common to see transwomen in the local pool changing rooms,99% of them where simply there getting changed no issue etc. However one older 'woman' who to me appeared to have made no effort to look like a woman was there almost daily and had a real habit of taking their sweet time getting undressed/dressed exposing what was clearly a male body. Applying endless lotion etc. To me that was an issue, that is not normal use of a changing room, no woman in there stood naked applying lotion and I would also take issue with that yet the many clearly uncomfortable women could not complain because the pool operated a use the changing room you identify with policy.
The same university switched to gender neutral toilets in the library and student union buildings. If you wanted single sex toilets you had to climb to the 5th floor the rest where gender neutral. This was an issue not due to trans peoples use but due to men who would continue to use the toilets as though they where male only, peeing with doors open, leaving seats up, toilets always much dirtier etc. I struggled to understand why in order to make the minority of trans people happy the women had to be made uncomfortable. What is wrong with a third space, or a small amount of gender neutral bathrooms.

Universities are known to produce a certain uniformity of thought. It's why there is a wide political divide between socioeconomic classes, and those who end up in positions of power and influence can often be out of touch with those who have to deal with the realities and consequences of social policies motivated by ideological zealotry.

Easy for a young, relatively well-off woman or man to chant the TWAW mantra.
They never have to be in the shoes of a marginalised woman in prison who has encountered deprivation and probably sexual abuse and violence, and is now being forced to share such a stressful environment with a sexual predator who claims to be a trans woman.

The 'kindness' brigade have no genuine kindness and empathy. Hence why they have to keep talking about it.

I'd recommend you read about a disabled woman's experience of working in LUSH. Full of young, right-on people but no ability to treat another human being with genuine kindness and empathy. It's all superficial and performative - use the right pronouns, chant the approved mantras and regurgitate the appropriate viewpoints with zero ability to explain them in one's own words.

Those currently in their 20's may be convinced by queer theory/gender ideology and the primacy of subjective feelings over objective facts, I have hope that those now in their teens and younger will be more questioning.

It was harder for those now in their twenties to even consider negative repercussions because 5-10 years ago it really just seemed like being kind to a tiny number of people suffering a mental health condition. Once anyone has committed to a belief and gone around proselytising about it, it becomes hard to backtrack.

The negative repercussions of queer theory are becoming ever more evident and those now under 20 are experiencing more of the totalitarian nature of this ideology. It is particularly clear when they are unable to ask questions at school about this topic even in classes specifically on this topic. Also when they are increasingly finding that they are losing privacy and dignity in toilets and changing rooms and forbidden from mentioning their discomfort for fear of committing a hate crime.

It is hard to convince people to believe something that clearly isn't true. Coercion is required. It depends how far the proponents of queer theory are willing to go to force belief and how much the rest of us are willing to tolerate it. I don't think those who currently children and teenagers will buy into it so completely as those just a bit older than them did. 🤞

@RedtreesRedtrees

Nonny you forgot the 2+2=5. All GC posters on here must state this. Perhaps you missed the memo?

It looks better on a t-shirt, no?

What's your 'diverse' views on the earth not being flat or the centre of the universe, or mathematics for that matter? Surely it can't be in agreement with the views held by people here and in the rest of the world?

This seems to get them unbelievably emotionally angry and irrational

I think it is because they secretly KNOW I am right, and they really CANT defend their argument but are told over and over and over again that they MUST

Their own cognitive dissonance hurting their brains.

Because the GC posters here have such diverse views

Actually, we have a very diverse range of views across the boards. We just happen to agree that humans can't change sex.

Also makes me laugh that GC only seems to be associated with 'feminists' because they needed a group of meanie women to call witches and point fingers at. Whilst in the real world it's the majority of the population who think gender ideology is nonsense.

Totally woke in our house.
I actually say lots of un-PC things just to wind them up.

Some of these comments make me so sad. My eldest is 12, the younger two at primary, and as far as I know are all unaware of the concept of trans (none of them follow popular culture). I find it really upsetting to think DH and I may be in this position in a few years. I'm wondering how and when to try and head it off by getting in there first and talking to them about it myself, so to speak, but equally I want them to feel free to form their own opinions and I don't want to push my views on them. Also, some of the strongest challenges to the TWAW mantra require explicit discussion about sexual abuse etc which I'm not sure is appropriate.

I do repeatedly tell them that although I should always be thoughtful and considerate of other people, they definitely don't have to #bekind!

Redtreesredtreee
At least we can rationally defend our views and don't chant thought terminating mantras. We also don't rely on doxxing or bullying to get our way. Do explain again how the Karen Whites or Jessica Yanivs will never happen and how it's ok for transwomen to play in women's sports or it's ok for males to answer phones in rape crisis centres.

they should be thoughtful

How far has this thing spread? I live in Italy and have literally never seen or heard about it here, only in British news. The thing with pronouns would be literally impossible unless we just made everyone into a "he". It seems to be localised to the UK and US for now.

My daughter is a lesbian. A year ago, I’d say she was very ‘live and let live’ so I tended not to challenge too much so that she could live more easily with her friendship group.

This summer she has told me that as lesbians, it is now impossible to meet in public. They now organise privately. She doesn’t feel comfortable with this, but they do it anyway.

So proof that young lesbians have been partially pushed back into the closet by men, who claim to be part of a movement that ought to be supporting them.

@babbaloushka

My biomedical graduate explained to me how it works, I think it came up during the neuroscience module. So agree with the scientific/physiological side of things but we both were not sure how that translates into legality, like prisons and rape crisis centres.

Hi @babbaloushka

I'm not sure what you mean here. What was your DC taught in neuroscience - that there is evidence for gendered brains and that trans people have the 'wrong sex' brains for their bodies?

Sorry if I have misunderstood.

Even Stonewalls new CEO has admitted they can't persuade everyone to believe what they believe (no shit Sherlock) and they are taking a new approach.

So on that basis Redtrees will you be rerunning your staff trans training to share this new freedom of thought granted by Stonewall? And now people are free at work to continue not believing men are women will you still be enforcing unwanted sexual conduct by allowing men to use female facilities?

@apollo440 last time I commented against the accepted GC viewpoint I was amazed how many DMs I received from other Mumsnetters who also disagree with the GC perspective but are too fearful to post themselves. I guess it’s not just TRAs who are bullies 🤷‍♀️

@Pluckedpencil

Canada, Australia and NZ are pretty on board with it, so a lot of anglophone countries for some reason. (My pet hate is the woke North American habit of replacing the words 'Latino' and 'Latina' with 'Latinx'. Talk about colonising someone else's language while lecturing everyone else on cultural appropriation!)

I think Sweden has been dealing with this too. There have been documentaries and studies carried out there. Interestingly, I think I remember reading somewhere that the transition rate in Swedish teenagers dropped considerably after a documentary talking about the downsides of transition was aired there.

@Portnlemon the company does not “enforce unwanted sexual conduct”

After a thorough explanation as to what a ‘transwoman’ was, the Chinese students were absolutely baffled, laughing among themselves. It was pretty embarrassing! They found the notion hilarious.

This is very interesting. One of China's predominant media figures - the Chinese Oprah, if you will - is Jin Xing, a former army colonel turned dancer, and china's first post-operative trans woman. I lived in China for almost a decade, in Shanghai, and the attitude to transgenderism/transsexualism was very matter of fact and unemotive. Of course, it could be a very different matter outside of the big cities. I know Jin Xing through a friend, and apparently Jin Xing doesn't claim to be a woman. So that's something I guess.

DD mid-20s, lesbian and GC (also has a GC lesbian colleague). Can't be openly GC at work (voluntary sector org).

She's an Eng Lit graduate so must have got through just in time - shudder to think what it would be like at her uni and on her course now.

There is hope.

So proof that young lesbians have been partially pushed back into the closet by men, who claim to be part of a movement that ought to be supporting them.

That’s awful, Prion.

The LGBTQwhatever does nothing at all to support lesbians. It just keeps the LGB to make people think that questioning the alphabet soup is homophobic.

Tbh @RedtreesRedtrees I wish they would put forward credible arguments in favour of the non-gc perspective.

I came to these boards agnostic about the whole thing. I've seen plenty of arguments but the non-gc case seems to boil down to 'but my trans friend is really nice'. I would actually like to hear something with more substance.

A non-circular definition of the word 'woman' (or 'man' for that matter) would be nice for starters, but I know I'm not going to get that.

Genuinely happy to be enlightened.

I notice how many pps use the word ‘woke’ as an insult but I haven’t seen anyone define what they mean (and I know how keen you all are on definitions). So I’ll start with this from a popular online dictionary: “having or marked by an active awareness of systemic injustices and prejudices, especially those related to civil and human rights.” Based on this I’m happy to self define as woke.

@RedtreesRedtrees

“ They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....”

Because the GC posters here have such diverse views

😂😂😂 This

@NewAndImprovedNorks

I cannot even speak to any of my rational, sensible, intelligent 20something children about this subject at all. Every other subject under the sun we can and do discuss and agree to differ. This seems to get them unbelievably emotionally angry and irrational.

I think it is because they secretly KNOW I am right, and they really CANT defend their argument but are told over and over and over again that they MUST

Yes, this is what’s happened in my house. I’m hoping logic will kick in when transwomen and sports, vulnerable women being unable to access women-only facilities and all the rest become part of the picture she sees. But she and her friends are woke to the point of blindness atm.

Gosh, I think the difference is that though "ladyboys" to use a phrase recognised in the UK are often accepted across Asia and the Pacific, surgery or no surgery, but they are not considered women. Just people who wish to live their lives as women.

Hence the controversy over the NZ transwoman weightlifter and the
objection by the Samoan Prime Minister

"This fa'afafine [a Samoan third gender] or man should have never been allowed by the Pacific Games Council president to lift with the women"