For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

Not a parent but an academic. I am not quiet about my views and a few students have privately told me they agree with me, and a few that I've supervised where they have had to write questionnaires etc. or refer to literature in essays have been very OK with making sure they use sex or gender accurately, no arguments, just got on with it. I did have one argue back when I pulled her up on terminology and get very flustered having clearly had nobody question her ever on her definitions!

[quote RedtreesRedtrees]@apollo440 last time I commented against the accepted GC viewpoint I was amazed how many DMs I received from other Mumsnetters who also disagree with the GC perspective but are too fearful to post themselves. I guess it’s not just TRAs who are bullies 🤷‍♀️[/quote]
Sure they did. Let's see some screenshots with dates showing, and the usernames blacked out.

My DS, our only child, is 15, so a couple of years off uni. We’ve brought him up to look at everything with a critical eye and as it’s quite likely he’ll do an engineering degree in some capacity, I’m not too worried.
I recently had a conversation with my OH about the issue (he says he agrees with me because I’m female so I have more skin in the game). I asked DS if there were any trans kids at school, he said that yes, there were a couple. I said ‘They’re girls, aren’t they?’. He was slightly surprised that I had guessed so accurately, till I told him what I had based my assumptions on and why. He rolled his eyes. ‘Yup, that’s pretty much it.’ he replied.

I think that being young you are more likely to know trans people so your views on this are going to be shaped a bit by their experience.

Obviously if it is your friend you will want to be kind and support them but there are a lot of young people for whom transitioning was the wrong thing. It is easy for Stonewall to say no one detransitons but when you know people who have you can question that a bit more.

Am hoping that my DD may have the guts to talk about disability. She is very well aware that it lacks many plus points in the cool stakes nor is there much of a marketing opportunity. She’s an old cynic on young shoulders

@EdgeOfACoin

Tbh *@RedtreesRedtrees* I wish they would put forward credible arguments in favour of the non-gc perspective.

I came to these boards agnostic about the whole thing. I've seen plenty of arguments but the non-gc case seems to boil down to 'but my trans friend is really nice'. I would actually like to hear something with more substance.

A non-circular definition of the word 'woman' (or 'man' for that matter) would be nice for starters, but I know I'm not going to get that.

Genuinely happy to be enlightened.

Exactly

I feel very much like edge here

Its obviously not pleasant being called a transphobe, sheeple or being told i dont have opinions of my own so I would quite like to have my mind changed on this

But all that seems to happen is name calling and posters who are apparently too terrified to post the information they have...on an anonymous forum

And I appreciate it’s difficult someone said something mean to me the other day and my heart was beating so fast but if i felt strongly i would still post

There are lots of different views on here about where lines are drawn, but it doesn’t suit some people to believe that. They would rather have a THEM and US culture

@babbaloushka

EdgeOfACoin

It was complicated stuff about the interrelationship of the endocrine system and polygenics, if you do some research about the SRY gene and the bipotential primordium it should make sense. I can't do it justice at all, but DD is very bright and it made perfect biological sense to her. It goes way beyond just chromosomes, which is mostly what TERFs use to try and justify their bigotry. Credible science agrees with transgenderism.

That is just from an objective view, neither me or DD are sure about the ethics/humanitarian side of things, but it is real.

“This is just an objective view”

Says the poster who calls people who disagree with her “bigots” and “terfs”.

Says the poster who calls people who disagree with her “bigots” and “terfs

That’s exactly what i thought!

I have two- one just finished and one at uni. Neither believe in transgenderism or mix in peer groups that do. The younger one is aware of Blair White and Yaniv and her friends have discussed it.

Depends on the uni and the kids I suppose. I graduated in 2017 and while I'm very happy to use people's preferred pronouns and treat them as the sex they desire - I am aware that they are not actually biological women.

I wouldn't have said this at uni and am not sure I really comprehended it at that age.

It took entering the working world and realising that there are differences - thinking about motherhood and pay gaps and realising that the only thing that connects women is our biology.

I think as the whole grow up they'll mull it over and realise that it's not actually fair that their company board considers itself gender diverse when there aren't any natal women sitting on it.

I used to challenge the idea of political correctness gone mad when I heard it but now it's morphed into an intolerant attitude as posters have described I am also skeptical of the American import of woke.

This is pretty ubiquitous in the UK, we can't all be evil bigots despite the insistence we are from the extreme end of woke. It's definitely a niaive immature mindset.

Redtrees, you haven't explained why you think woman being compelled to accept male cross dressers, clearly described as transgender in Trans training courses and materials, and explicitly referred to as being for sexual purposes in some cases by the NHS training and inclusion manager Tara Hewitt in videos available online, can't be considered as unwanted sexual conduct?

@Whatsnewpussyhat

last time I commented against the accepted GC viewpoint I was amazed how many DMs I received from other Mumsnetters who also disagree with the GC perspective but are too fearful to post themselves. I guess it’s not just TRAs who are bullies

So a few MN's are "too fearful" to post on an anonymous forum because others have different opinions and their arguments, like the belief in gender ideology, can't hold up against any critical thinking, logic or biological fact and can't see the damage it's doing to females across the globe?

Meanwhile, GC females outside of the internet bubble are regularly threatened with rape, death, unemployment, doxxed, etc etc and have reason to be ACTUAL fearful. Not just being afraid of hurty feelings.

Gosh, I did hope that they are now all safe

@AnyOldPrion

My daughter is a lesbian. A year ago, I’d say she was very ‘live and let live’ so I tended not to challenge too much so that she could live more easily with her friendship group.

This summer she has told me that as lesbians, it is now impossible to meet in public. They now organise privately. She doesn’t feel comfortable with this, but they do it anyway.

So proof that young lesbians have been partially pushed back into the closet by men, who claim to be part of a movement that ought to be supporting them.

That is so awful AnyOldPrion. Young lesbians pushed back into the closet. All the freedoms lesbians and gay men fought for back in the 70s and 80s eroded by heterosexual males who self identify as women. Am pleased that they feel able to meet outside groups. As a parent of older adult children, they do change their views as they move towards their 30s and are less frightened of group intimidation. The open bullying and overreach by TRAs, the cynical targeting of children and the failure of #nodebate is resulting in all the abuses being clearly documented so it becomes more difficult to insist on complete obedience.

Redtrees, you haven't explained why you think woman being compelled to accept male cross dressers, clearly described as transgender in Trans training courses and materials, and explicitly referred to as being for sexual purposes in some cases by the NHS training and inclusion manager Tara Hewitt in videos available online, can't be considered as unwanted sexual conduct?

Redtrees doesn't exactly seem to have much respect for current equality legislation or a firm grip on it. She needs to read this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do?pg=4

@CorianderLord how many companies do you reckon actually claim to be gender diverse with no natal women on their board?

This actually worries me abit. My dd is 16 so a yr or 2 off uni but i am damned if i am paying hundreds if not thousands for my daughter to be brainwashed and indoctrinated with wokeness.
I will try my very best to get her to choose a "normal "uni , if they exist?

CasuallyMasculine the dictionary definition is “an adult female human being”.

I didn’t ask you to quote it. I asked what you thought of it, fond as you seem to be to adhere to dictionary definitions.

"Credible science agrees with transgenderism."

Now I'm not particularly well educated or what you would call "bright" but if the above sentence is true, how does it explain the different types of Trans Gender people? There's body dysphoria, cross dressing, AGP etc. Are these people being tested to find any evidence in their biology that science does agree with transgenderism?

Redtrees, do you actually have kids at University, or are you simply plonking yourself on a thread in order to have an argument?

If so I suggest AIBU.

And if you do have a child at University, are you sure that they don't find themselves tiptoeing around. My current favourite is the Muslim student who complained that the vegetarian (ie halal acceptable) restaurant they organised for a group Christmas lunch served alcohol so was exclusionary. The problem seems to be as much how delicate young people can be, as much as any gender stuff. And woe betide if even the kindest, most careful, student gets it wrong.

(A good example is Lily Madigan's complaint of about a year ago whgen a delivery driver misgendered them. Sometimes stuff happens. And those who are not represented by intersectionality can get tired of being called out.)

I am at university and in my mid twenties. I don't really discuss this with my friends at uni (and it's rarely discussed on my course, although this may be changing) but I would guess that most of them haven't given it much thought at all. I think that their thoughts would mostly be "be kind". However I know that some of them know that you can't change your sex. Some SU people use pronouns in emails but this kind of thing isn't very widespread yet.

I have only one friend my age outside of my uni who is gc. Most people I know say they agree with some/most of what jkr says but she is still a transphobe, gender is more significant than biological sex, there is no harm in opening up women's spaces etc.

I do actually think these people are considerate and just trying to be kind and inclusive, rather than "woke"/brainwashed. I think when you are my age it's harder to appreciate why feminism is important. Their perception is that trans people are more marginalised than women so their rights are more important and more worth campaigning for. My opinion is that at some point we have to choose whether to prioritise women's rights or trans rights, but everyone disagrees with me about that.

Portnlemon
"If you are threatening women with disciplinary action for objecting to cross dressing men in their female facilities you are most definitely enforcing unwanted sexual conduct on women."

Totally agree and I would like to add that "indecent exposure" is still a crime in the UK, which can get a person up to two years in prison.

@CasuallyMasculine I think it’s another example of where the use of a term in common parlance can differ considerably from the core dictionary definition. There have been multiple uses of the term ‘woke‘ in this thread which has a dictionary definition but few posters seem to agree with it. Clearly some people have different views on the definition of woman.

Clearly some people have different views on the definition of woman.

For sure they do.

But “woke” is a colloquialism and we all know how frequently they change, whereas “woman” is the term used for an adult human female based on knowledge and understanding of the human species.

Until there’s some credible scientific research that shows there are women who are not adult human females, and biological males who are, I’ll stick with current science.

TLDR; men can’t be women.

Btw I’m on the thread, so please don’t @ me - it just clogs up my inbox.

It was complicated stuff about the interrelationship of the endocrine system and polygenics, if you do some research about the SRY gene and the bipotential primordium it should make sense.

If that was true then there'd be a way to test for transgenderism. Not only is this not case, the TRAs are very much anti any kind of gate keeping of transgenderism that such test would enable.