For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

I used to think that woke meant liberal. But when you point out the injustice of ethnic minority women and girls not being able to use single sex facilities, abuse survivors not being able to feel safe in a refuge, women not safe in prisons because we should accept that TWAW, there is no empathy for them. So now I just think that being woke is just a load of virtue signalling.

@GoshHashana

From what I gathered, it wasn’t a serious issue at all to them. They seemed to view it as something wacky and entertaining. I guess they had not heard of the English translation for the term.

Sure, the definition of 'woke' is still evolving.

But if you're going have laws in place to protect 'woke' people, you're going to need to have a consistent definition of that word.

Otherwise anyone could identify as 'woke' and lay claim to those rights and the whole thing would become meaningless.

DD is an engineering student. So as far as I can tell she's pretty much a second wave type of feminist, as she's still living in the real world of women being underrepresented and constrained by stereotypes. They're too busy with a demanding course to have much time for student politics. I think this is one of the reasons there can be a distorted view of what students are like, it's the noisy ones with a bit too much time on their hands you hear about.

I hope the younger generation is less susceptible. It is depressing, like a brainwash. I think I would steer my child to apprenticeships and trades rather than uni at the moment. Most people are on board with people being whatever that want, as long as other people's legitimate rights and concerns are not swept away.

I started this thread because I read the pronouns in email thread. I think this is going to be an issue soon where I work. The groups pushing for it and a review of how we do everything are full of the group I posted about in OP. Where I work we have lots of age groups, gay, straight, different ethnicities, people with disabilities, lots of senior women and people from different ethnic groups. We seem to be a happy ship, lots of room for development and promotions - all types of people getting promoted. So, as far as I am aware, there have not been any problems. I am a white woman, I have experienced sexism before but I can't say there aren't any other equality issues because I am what am I. Others will have a different view/experience.

Mine had to leave the uni feminist group as she wasn't buying into TWAW narrative and was finding it too difficult to hide. She felt that if it became apparent to her peers she was gender critical that her time at uni would have been blighted And she would have been ostracised.

My two DSs (one undergrad, one PhD) are very GC, but as a quid pro quo they do insist on winding me up about Mumsnet. The PhD student is a philosopher and says it would be impossible to admit to being GC in his department and has the impression this is the case in most departments across the country.

It's all so fucking joyless isn't it?

My daughter is of the opinion twaw too she also tried to call me a cis woman claiming it was Latin therfore accurate (she is English student)

My daughter has just graduated in english literature, but she is a mature student ( 35). Still, younger than Owen Jones.

She says that English literature is full of intersectionalist readings of texts, and both she and her prof detest it. The younger students have no real interest in older literature, such as in renaissance studies, nor in older poetry, and as a result the study and teaching of literature has become detached from what it is really supposed to be about. Instead becoming a degree in 'Intersectionalist criticism'.

She gained a first, winning prizes each year, and is set to do an MA in either Shakespeare Studies or in Renaissance literature - and she's determined to be a voice in the academy that stands, with scholarly integrity, against this bullshit, unintellectual head fuckery.

Recently read The Coddling of the American Mind which looks at the growth of extreme political correct culture on university campuses in America. Well worth a read. What happens in the U.S inevitably ends up here.

.....after all queer theory was designed in a lab on an American university campus in the first place.

Plus there's already a new generation coming up behind them who will soon be shouldering them and their tired old ideas out of the way.

DS is 13 and has a cousin who identifies as trans. I don’t really talk about me being GC in front of him as he is close to his cousin and I don’t really think it’s appropriate at the moment.

Anyway, he was telling me about a video he’d seen on YouTube. Apparently, it was of a man breaking the woman’s dead-lift record and identifying as a woman whilst doing so. Apparently, he and his mates had been discussing it and thought it was absolutely ridiculous that men could identify as woman and compete as women in sports. He is at that age where puberty has kicked in and the size/strength difference between the boys and girls at school is becoming much more apparent.

I, of course, pretended I had no idea about that particular video clip.

It's all so fucking joyless isn't it?

This.

I'd like to know the qualities/experiences/environments young people who are free thinkers on these topics have in common. There must be factors that protect young adults from group think.

Mine are still in primary school. I don't know if it'll work, but we've already had conversations that hopefully anchor reality before anybody else has a chance to get in there. So a boy in a dress is a boy in a dress and a dress is something that anybody can wear, but most males choose not to. Boys and girls can do whatever they want, so can men and women, but only males produce sperm and only females get pregnant.

We'll see in 15 years if I've been successful.

I am viewing it like porn: I shouldn't have to deal with this, but seeing as it's unavoidable, I'm going to plant seeds so the first time they come across these things, they will at least have questions raised because it won't be the first contact they've had with these topics. To be clear, I'm talking about planting seeds to what reality and good feelings in your body and respect for others is, not launching into discussions about hardcore pith or AGP with a 6 year old!

I notice how many pps use the word ‘woke’ as an insult but I haven’t seen anyone define what they mean (and I know how keen you all are on definitions). So I’ll start with this from a popular online dictionar having or marked by an active awareness of systemic injustices and prejudices, especially those related to civil and human rights.” Based on this I’m happy to self define as woke

Using that definition is fine. What it fails to tag on in the addendum, though, is how this 'awareness' has become a form of extreme self righteousness, as if nobody before, in the history of humanity had ever seen , thought or realised anything similar. The arrogance of youth untested in the real world, and convinced there is no other way. Foot soldiers for the oncoming revolution. Unmoored, and totally unhinged.

You're on form today just.

Really love your posts.

I have one ds who has just finished uni (health care area) who thinks it's a load of nonsense as do most of his friends. He says there is a bit of wokeness in the university but mainly in SU and more artsy courses.

Dd has just finished first year (health care too) and she says it's the same in her university. In fact, during one lecture, the lecturer said they were referring to sex, and not any of that "arty farty gender nonsense". That would probably have got him fired in a UK university from what I read here (I'm in Ireland).

I work in the same university my dd attends. From what I can see, there is an element of wokeness amongst certain staff. I had a discussion recently about puberty blockers with a colleague in psychology who I thought would have more sense. I consider it tantamount to child abuse. He believes it makes sense as surgery and physical transition is easier if started young.

A few staff use preferred pronouns. HR are pretty woke - on a recent survey I suggested an "other" option for the gender question. I was told female included transwomen. The survey was about inequality in our school. I was happy to have trans (or other) included as transpeople suffer different discrimination to women and should also be considered as a separate category.

Disabled toilets are now all now "all-gender".

@Justhadathought to me your addendum just reads like a description of the GC posters here, minus obviously the words “of youth”.

No I’m accepting a definition of woke. I’m asking what yours is

My use of the word 'woke' implies lack of critical thought. Buying into the prevailing right-think culture that surrounds. It is not radical at all, in the way that social justice movements used to be. It represents the dominant narrative in the academy and in most institutions now. and when it comes to trans ideology.....nobody even believes it. they just have to pretend they do. Once you have signed up, you have to offer undying allegiance. No question. Wokeism is about social conformity and fitting in.

That is what 'woke' means to me. That is my definition.

@ahumanfemale

Sounds like a really sensible approach to me.

09:03ErrolTheDragon

Quite, I studied engineering and it was pretty much a full time course with several hours of lectures, labs, tutorials and seminars every day. Add on top of that reading, assignments, part time jobs and god forbid having a bit of fun there was no time to get caught up in student politics or whatever the latest campus faux outrage was.

@Justhadathought to me your addendum just reads like a description of the GC posters here, minus obviously the words “of youth

Many of us here have been involved in social justice movements over many decades. Fought for what has now been achieved, and taken for granted. The woke generation are reaping the benefits but seem totally unaware of it. Trying to re-invent the wheel. Casting about for the next big oppression.

You're on form today just

Thanks! I'm a definitely a morning person.

I am a PhD student at a university. My experience is that the staff are very TWAW and the undergraduates are more questioning.

DS is not on board. He is at an extremely woke, queer theory, TWAW uni. They have lectures on "being an ally". He dare not say a single word. He's was publicly and aggressively confronted by a visiting lecturer over his reading material. He takes ages to go to the loo as he has to travel up several flights of stairs to the male loos. He suspects a couple of his lecturers are not 100% on board though... when asked pronouns, DS raises an eyebrow and said lecturers raise an eyebrow back. He also has close friends who are transitioning which must be awkward. He's being supportive and sensitive of course. I don't think it would be possible for him to say what he really thinks which is that it's actually impossible change your sex.