‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

[Haveastock]

The story of Jake Graf and Hannah Winterbourne’s surrogacy journey. They’re the photogenic transgender power couple who are patrons of Mermaid.

Their surrogate was an Irish woman and I followed Jake on Instagram during the whole drama of the birth happening amidst a pandemic. I actually shed a tear when I saw a photo of the baby in their arms and thought about a nameless woman in the background having to deal with the post-birth pain and bleeding without a baby to hold.

I’ve just watched a trailer where Jake said they were hoping for a boy first (they used their own eggs and donor sperm) as they knew how to handle boys - throw them around, be boisterous etc. and werevmore familiar with that then girls who, as far as they were concerned mainly played with glitter and dolls!!! Yes, they laughingly admitted they’re were as prone to gender stereotypes as the next man, woman etc.! How we laughed!?

I’m sure it will be an interesting programme and the baby is so gorgeous. As I’ve said before, I wish them all well. The baby won’t be short on love. But by championing Mermaids and their push for the affirmation model, no matter how young, Jake is indirectly encouraging a generation of young kids to start on a treatment pathway that will end up in depriving them of any chance of a biological child of their own. I find that absolutely tragic.

(Am sure they’re a bit frustrated that their programme is airing during the 48 hour Twitter blackout)

Hope no one minds me posting about it on this board. Am sure there will be a thread in Telly Addicts too. I imagine they’ll get a lot of positive feedback.

The whole situation is selfish. Everything is either about money or gratification. The best interests of the child created just don't get a look in.

From the consultation paper. Some commissioning parents attempted to itemise the costs. Others simply wrote "expenses incurred" with no detail. I don't think I've seen any evidence of courts questioning payments. (Although I'm sure the tax man might want to see some receipts....).
The fact is, the British concept of altruistic surrogacy is a complete fiction.

Here are links to a couple of the old threads.

The Rumplestiltskin Law www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3606313-The-Rumplestiltskin-Law

The illegitimacy of the ‘Rumplestiltskin’ Surrogacy consultation www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultation

I thought Jake came across as an aggressive control freak. The way they marched into the hospital, carrying the car seat, within a couple of hours of Millie being born made me feel so sad for Laura. DH said they looked like a couple of child snatchers.

I was shocked to learn that they'd only known Laura for 2 weeks before she agreed to be the surrogate and wasn't she pregnant a couple of weeks later? That's so irresponsible to me.

Dog breeding rules.

Hannah, trailing behind with the massive pile of luggage...

What did they do with their car, if they flew back?

I really liked Hannah.

Jake made me furious. The description of the egg harvesting and how it was invasive and an unpleasant procedure and environment for a man. Obviously for women it is like a Soa day.

And how he loves his muscled body and couldn’t possibly have his smooth 6 pack abs ruined by bearing a child. That is for mere women....

And as for the dismissive stuff about girls and glitter, from someone who grew up as a ‘tomboy’ girl. There seemed to be so much internalised misogyny at work in Jake. Enough to have driven his transition out of being a woman. That worries me far more, in a parent if a girl, than a parent being trans.

Hannah seemed much more centred in her Trans-ness, matter of fact about male puberty and hands and jaws, etc.

Spa day not soa day

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo

Oh holy

It is so manipulative for Hannah to compare themself to an infertile women.

Yes.

In this section of Mumsnet a transwoman told me their infertility was sadder than mine because at least I had a womb. He'd fathered children.

I'm still angry.

I've woken up with something in my head.
Hannah told the superior officer about being trans and the next day Hannah came into work as Hannah.

So no time to consult with female staff about toilets or changing facilities and the female staff knew Hannah as a man. All new female uniform would be provided and in whatever way the sexes are separated in that role/regiment just applies to Hannah as female straight away.

No GRC at that time obviously as you have to live in 'acquired gender' for two years and this was overnight in Hannah's own words.

This isn't about Hannah being a sexual threat to those women and I'm sure many of those women who knew Hannah before Hannah was Hannah would be fine with it, but others would feel really uncomfortable and it's those women I'm thinking about.

When Jake said girls, in their opinion, are all about glitter and dolls but recognises that tough girls do exist, pointing to Hannah. Hmm, because Hannah is, of course, male, and was brought up with the same gender stereotypes that GC feminists are trying desperately to get away from. So most girls are about dolls and glitter but the tough girls are male.

#OhHolyJesus*, that is a good point. There is an aspect of forcing, almost of violence, in deciding whose views and needs are vaild and whose views and needs are transphobic. Nobody is allowed to have reservations about such a rapid change.

This reminds me of that poster in a loo which asked how to react if you see someone there you think shouldn't be there, and the answer was that you should mind your own business and let that person pee in peace.

The dilemma with that is how the female radar for potential violence then has to be turned off. I understand the goals of that poster, but they make no distinction between a trans woman entering the space or a man intent to peep or perhaps even rape. And should it actually turn out to be the case that nothing but self-identification will be required one day, well, then no person can be denied entry to that loo, even someone who is dressed male, has a beard and so on. Loos will then be mixed sex.

In other words, the demands are all from one side of the issue, and trying to point out concerns from both sides is transphobia.

Wolf did you set up a new thread? I was looking for it because I have some different views to what you’ve said about reproduction and would be interested if there’s a thread to chat about that.

I will try to find time to watch the doc, thanks for flagging it OP.

@KingFredsTache

I've actually warmed to Hannah - speaking openly about male puberty and the undeniable physical effects it has. Doesn't seem to be a biology-denier.

She couldn't bring herself to say the word 'sperm' though when talking about herself, she repeated 'gametes'.

It's tricky, they do seem to be very in love and Hannah seems quite sweet, and it was sad when Hannah was saying that she never bothered freezing sperm because it never occurred to her that she would find love. I am glad they found each other. They certainly play the gender roles don't they, Jake definitely 'wears the trousers' - that bit where they wouldn't get out the car on the ferry (of course they had to get out, who do they think they are?!)

But there are some things that don't sit right. They still seem quite self centred in it all, Hannah annoyed that she feels left out, the kicking off about not being able to see the baby straight away, maybe Laura was asleep or something? Laura's children didn't exactly seem comfortable with it, but that could just be editing.

£15,000 for expenses for Laura - who comes up with that figure, is it tax free? What is that covering exactly?

£15k equates to £2.20 per hour for 40 weeks of work. Not exactly a fair price to pay to someone who is risking their health massively both physically and psychologically.

@OhHolyJesus

I've woken up with something in my head. Hannah told the superior officer about being trans and the next day Hannah came into work as Hannah.

So no time to consult with female staff about toilets or changing facilities and the female staff knew Hannah as a man. All new female uniform would be provided and in whatever way the sexes are separated in that role/regiment just applies to Hannah as female straight away.

No GRC at that time obviously as you have to live in 'acquired gender' for two years and this was overnight in Hannah's own words.

This isn't about Hannah being a sexual threat to those women and I'm sure many of those women who knew Hannah before Hannah was Hannah would be fine with it, but others would feel really uncomfortable and it's those women I'm thinking about.

DS1 is in the army and has experience of this. There is a soldier who is in a regiment alongside his. They all come back from leave on a Monday and in orders there was a paragraph about Soldier X who'd they'd all know as Bob but was now Roberta. That was it. This was in all male regiments at the time.

I don't know how it would've been handled had there have been women already in the regiments.

The question is what does 'mother' and 'father' mean ? It doesnt mean anyone who identifies as such, as how can you identify as something which you cant define. I thought it was very interesting in the short clip i showed that jake appeared more natural when holding the baby than hannah. Must be something to so with that female biology

£15k equates to £2.20 per hour for 40 weeks of work. Not exactly a fair price to pay to someone who is risking their health massively both physically and psychologically.

No, but a £15k lump sum to a single mother living in Belfast would be a bit of an incentive I think? 'Altruistic surrogacy' my arse.

I know (through social media) of a couple who cannot have kids themselves because cancer and treatment took away her ability to ever carry a child. They have just had a baby with her cousin as a surrogate. Throughout the process they have always thanked the cousin repeatedly and emphasised what it is she is doing for them, and when the baby was born they put up pics of the cousin cuddling the baby as well as them. Obviously they haven't gone into great detail about the arrangements, and I don't know what kind of relationship they will have with the surrogate going forward, but it did all seem very positive.

That seems a bit of a world away from this, where they stormed into the hospital, the bit about 'the mother is sitting in the car' (WTF?!), and the baby was back on a plane seemingly within hours. I wonder what kind of role Laura will play in that child's life? I can imagine the contact waning as 'busy lives' take over.....

It also makes me think of that photo that Mark from Westlife put up when he had a baby using a surrogate - him and his partner wheeling a cot away with their backs to the camera, as if they are driving off in a new car or something.

It really was interesting how Jake appeared to be so much more natural with the baby wasn't it? Obviously it's just one case so you can't take too much from it, but it was very striking.

I've not seen the show yet but this quote made me want to cry

will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful"

So little care and regard for the babies needs and feelings.

We watched a baby be born on somthing the other day and I said to dh, birth must be so scary for the baby. Getting latched on or at least cuddled up to the only familiar thing they know - their mum must be so important to them. But these people don't give a shit. The baby is like a toy to them.

I was seperate from my own dd after a cuddle and a feed to go to surgery. She was hysterical and didn't calm down until brought into the recovery room with me still passed out. All a newborn wants and needs is its mum.

Thanks to everyone who watched this programme so I didn't have to

I wonder how many trans people grew up in households with very strict gender stereotypes and how many grew up with no emphasis on gender roles.

It would be a really interesting study. The same with looking at mysogany in the home.

It seems from what people have said that Hannah has a real dysphoria, where as jake seems to believe that they can't be tough and manly and do what they want to do and be a woman, he also seems to have a real hatred for women. That seems to be more learnt rather than inherent inner feeling.

It seems from what people have said that Hannah has a real dysphoria, where as jake seems to believe that they can't be tough and manly and do what they want to do and be a woman, he also seems to have a real hatred for women. That seems to be more learnt rather than inherent inner feeling.

I'm not sure about that. Hannah mentioned dressing up in 'women's' clothes when alone, but then came out as trans when put in a situation where there was nowhere private to do this.

Jake seems to be someone who is full of internalised misogyny. I wonder what happened in Jake's past to cause that?

I see a lot of similarities in them - Jake can't bear to be a woman (for Jake there is something inherently bad about being a woman) and Hannah can't bear to be a man (because men can't be gentle and feminine and wear feminine clothes).

It is never ever justifiable to remove a newborn from their Mother. To deny them the chance to breast feed & have colostrum, which we know is of huge benefit to babies development. No one is advocating for the baby in this situation. I hope Laura is ok & I hope this baby has a happy life, though I fear it will be challenging as her parents have chosen to live very much in the public eye.

I think I missed will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful! Did Hannah say that when they were in the car on the way to the hospital? I was talking briefly to DH about something else....

What an awful thing to say! This baby has been inside Laura for 9 months, pretty well 'latched on' via an umbilical cord. So what, as soon as they don't need Laura anymore, the idea of Laura having any sort of bond whatsoever with the baby is 'awful'?

And what about the baby? Would it be 'awful' for Millie to latch on and get a bit of colostrum? Who exactly would it be 'awful' for? I know emotions were high but I just think that is a really stupid thing to say, would Hannah and Jake even be aware of how it comes across?

There is a sense of real entitlement that is coming up through the next generation of people - I think Jake and Hannah are early thirties aren't they, so I guess they would be at the older side of that?

Someone once said about trans activism 'this is what happens when you have an entire generation who have never been told no' and it does seem to be coming to pass doesn't it?

I didn't watch it - though I might on catch up.

Surrogacy, to my mind, is always wrong. Yes, even when it's someone's sister/cousin/friend 'doing it for' someone who is unable to have her own baby. To deliberately create a baby's life in order to remove the baby from the mother is to deliberately mess with the early emotional and psychological and physical needs of the mother and baby.

In extreme situations, it's necessary to separate mother and baby, I know. But it is never done lightly.

In this particular situation, Jake and Hannah seem to think of a mother as a commodity, and to have some firm ideas of what behaviour to expect from what sex. If this baby likes the 'wrong' toys or clothes, will they assume 'trans'?

I was interested in Hannah's parents too. They seemed like really nice people, but I wonder if they were quite traditional and whether Hannah was brought up with quite rigid ideas of boy and girl? I don't know.

I agree it would be interesting to do some sort of study about stereotypes children who grew up to be trans were brought up with. We have seen it with Jazz Jennings, Paris Lees said they weren't allowed to play with dolls as a child, an awful lot of these 'trans kids' have stories of how the loved dolls/dresses/princesses etc.