‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

[Haveastock]

The story of Jake Graf and Hannah Winterbourne’s surrogacy journey. They’re the photogenic transgender power couple who are patrons of Mermaid.

Their surrogate was an Irish woman and I followed Jake on Instagram during the whole drama of the birth happening amidst a pandemic. I actually shed a tear when I saw a photo of the baby in their arms and thought about a nameless woman in the background having to deal with the post-birth pain and bleeding without a baby to hold.

I’ve just watched a trailer where Jake said they were hoping for a boy first (they used their own eggs and donor sperm) as they knew how to handle boys - throw them around, be boisterous etc. and werevmore familiar with that then girls who, as far as they were concerned mainly played with glitter and dolls!!! Yes, they laughingly admitted they’re were as prone to gender stereotypes as the next man, woman etc.! How we laughed!?

I’m sure it will be an interesting programme and the baby is so gorgeous. As I’ve said before, I wish them all well. The baby won’t be short on love. But by championing Mermaids and their push for the affirmation model, no matter how young, Jake is indirectly encouraging a generation of young kids to start on a treatment pathway that will end up in depriving them of any chance of a biological child of their own. I find that absolutely tragic.

(Am sure they’re a bit frustrated that their programme is airing during the 48 hour Twitter blackout)

Hope no one minds me posting about it on this board. Am sure there will be a thread in Telly Addicts too. I imagine they’ll get a lot of positive feedback.

I think I missed will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful! Did Hannah say that when they were in the car on the way to the hospital?

I think it was Jake who said that.

Oh, I don't know why I assumed it was Hannah? I thought maybe because Hannah sees themselves as the 'mother' and had been complaining about feeling left out earlier in the programme.

£15k equates to £2.20 per hour for 40 weeks of work. Not exactly a fair price to pay to someone who is risking their health massively both physically and psychologically.

Is it “work” though? I personally don’t believe surrogacy is work any more than sex work is work.

It also makes me think of that photo that Mark from Westlife put up when he had a baby using a surrogate - him and his partner wheeling a cot away with their backs to the camera, as if they are driving off in a new car or something.

It was even worse than that. Their arms were raised in the air in triumph. That was always the most fucked up thing to me.

Is it “work” though? I personally don’t believe surrogacy is work any more than sex work is work.

Well exactly, the 'altruistic' surrogate isn't actually supposed to be 'working' it is supposed to be an entirely voluntary role. I wonder if even 'expenses' weren't allowed (like I said, who spends 15 grand on a pregnancy - surely we are talking hospital parking fees and travel, maybe some breast and maternity pads, some maternity clothes, vitamins, it's a few hundred quid at most?) how many 'altruistic' surrogates would come forward? It's exploitation.

Has there even been a study done on demographic of surrogates, paid, 'expenses covered', and completely unpaid ?

@Haworthia - I started the original thread on the Westlife surrogacy because that photo stuck in my craw. I am a lifelong opponent of surrogacy and like with the Trans issue, most of the people on the other side seem to be the same people - men who hate women and want to destroy us and women who "want to be kind".

I had a fallout with my sisters over my thread on Westlife as they all (high achieving mothers and feminists) feel we should be kind to gay men [confuse] - even at the expense of our rights and those of our daughters .

But they all use the same arguments as the women who do not want to be against trans rights - once again, I believe, because a powerful male funded media lobby has erased our ability for critical thought on these subjects which are both about taking away the hard earned rights of women which started with the suffragettes.

Its funny how gay men or trans people seem to know what female biology is when they need a female for surrogacy. I havent watched the programme and dont intend to but do am curious to know how they know whether they have a boy child or a girl child, has the baby revealed its gender identity yet by choosing pink or blue or have they judged its gender aka sex by its genitals ?

Name change because this is outing but just wanted to say that it's interesting how we have such a clear understanding of the needs of livestock with respect to their mothers but we are happy to dismiss this with humans.

For example, we understand in a lot of detail the needs of calves immediately after birth and the role of the mother in that. New born calves are licked clean by the mother immediately after birth which important in kick-starting their breathing and suckling. If humans have to intervene in this process (e.g. because the mother has had a difficult birth) there will be concerns about the calf's long term health. Equally it is absolutely vital that calves get enough colostrum in the first few hours immediately after birth otherwise the calf has much less chance of a healthy "productive" life.

Without wanting to sound too hippy about it, in this age of technology and medicine we seem to have divorced ourselves of our essential nature. We've forgotten that we are mammals and we have base needs. For this reason I can't support surrogacy.

Its funny how gay men or trans people seem to know what female biology is when they need a female for surrogacy.

I know right - no hand wringing about 'what even is a woman anyway?' when they need one to carry out a specific function for them. It's fucking grim really isn't it?

Jake can't bear to be a woman (for Jake there is something inherently bad about being a woman) and Hannah can't bear to be a man (because men can't be gentle and feminine and wear feminine clothes).

I do sometimes wonder whether some girls and women are running away from being females while some boys and men are running towards a feminine identity. A repulsion vs an attraction.

I am continually struck by the fact that MTF and FTM are not mirror images of each other. They are quite different things.

I had a fallout with my sisters over my thread on Westlife as they all (high achieving mothers and feminists) feel we should be kind to gay men - even at the expense of our rights and those of our daughters.

It's no longer a question of just being kind either. Surrogacy has been reframed as a civil right for infertile straight people/couples and gay people/couples.

There was a recent judgment by Lady Hale (I think) that set a precedent for the NHS to pay for surrogacy. In this particular case it was money to pay for 4 surrogate pregnancies in California. The case was part of a medical negligence lawsuit for which the woman also received damages for loss of fertility. Whilst I have some sympathy I find it shocking that essentially the court ordered the British tax payers to fund treatment abroad that at the time of the judgement (and still now) is illegal in this country.

Then of course the LGBT surrogacy lobby have been working very hard to reframe the concept of surrogacy as a civil right for all LGBT people almost as an addendum to marriage equality. It's framed as a 'right to family life' but by approaching that way it means that some people will have a legal right to access and commodification of women's bodies and this will end up being written in legislation.

Once this happens it becomes big business as it is in California and will require a constant stream of young women to be pressured and/or enticed into both egg donation and surrogacy. Both these things are high risk and potentially fatal. Not to mention the psychological damage.

All this is without even touching on the rights of children.

It's truly sickening and the people that own the clinics will become disgustingly rich from it.

I haven’t watched the programme and don’t know if I will. Having been through a very difficult time conceiving, including going through 2 mc, and having recently given birth to DS I think I’d find it a very difficult watch.

I have seen the trailer though and it made me feel quite sad that this is framed as a ‘miracle’. If those two people hadn’t wilfully destroyed their own fertility chances are they could have conceived their own children naturally. But I doubt that the programme attempts to address this in any real way (please correct me if I’m wrong about that).

What would have happened if the surrogate had changed her mind after the birth? When she was sat in hospital with the new baby, when Jake and Hannah weren't allowed in. Could she have called the whole thing off and handed back the cash? How would that have worked?

@OvaHere - yes Ova, I always think you are so eloquent on these sites, I wish I could call you when I debate this with my family - debate being the operative word as we are one of those debate at the kitchen table families.

I am also saddened that I did so much work alongside so many women for so many years on the Repeal the 8th campaign in Ireland (long before it was even known as Repeal and even before many of the activists were born) and yet those self same people have now taken up the cause of Trans rights and Surrogacy rights for gay men in Ireland and I despair for the future of our own bodily integrity rights and those of our daughters (and none of them see the irony).

I know that when you say some of these things you sound like a conspiracy nut but I can't help but think that some of this major change is being driven by tech nerds in California.

Yes Anna it's hugely frustrating. Especially as the vast majority of the time those advocating for it won't be at the sharp end just as the majority of sex work champions will never walk the streets or work in a brothel.

It's vulnerable women, like the single mother from Belfast for whom 15k probably seems like a fortune, that will end up fulfilling these roles.

imwellardme - that is one of the things the proposed changes in U.K. surrogacy is looking to address. Right now, the mother can indeed refuse to hand over the baby because she is the legal mother.

chatty - wolf did start a thread but it was deleted fairly swiftly after some rather unpleasant POVs were shared.

Oh the background of people who transition, there does seem to be a correlation between a tech and/or military career and coming out as a transwoman.

@imwellardme I think surrogate mothers know that there’s no going back even if their instincts are screaming to call it all off. It’s not just not getting the money, it’s potential legal action, and the lifelong ramifications of being that evil surrogate who backtracked and refused to relinquish the baby to the poor distraught intended parents.

It’s especially true if the baby isn’t genetically theirs - the baby is almost always seen as the property of the genetic mother. I think that’s why couples who can’t provide their own egg choose to implant a donor egg into a surrogate mother - just to really make sure that the surrogate has no claim to the baby.

I didnt have time to see the documentary, but I already bet there was not much debate around the short and long term impacts on the baby? Probably just the usual 'all you need is love' BS?

It makes me so sad there is no public sphere where society can safely discuss the impact these fertility processes have on the baby and whether we as a society should allow it.

I started a thread on here loosely related to this topic yesterday (are certain procedures ethical). I got a ton of abuse and the thread was deleted as 'not in the spirit'.

It is like the days of the reformation we all have to gather in online hidey holes to be able to state our opinion..

The photo @Haworthia posted makes me feel so sad.

Am not at all interested in this. What is so miraculous about surrogacy?

Thanks for this thread. It's so messed up and if I talked about it in real life I would be hung out to dry and probably end up with a disciplinary

Then of course the LGBT surrogacy lobby have been working very hard to reframe the concept of surrogacy as a civil right for all LGBT people almost as an addendum to marriage equality. It's framed as a 'right to family life' but by approaching that way it means that some people will have a legal right to access and commodification of women's bodies and this will end up being written in legislation.

In a way this makes any conversation difficult as it is immediately shut down with accusations of homophobia/transphobia. One cannot just be against surrogacy, they are against surrogacy because they are homophobic or transphobic.

I meant that's the accusation, not that I think they are.

Just watching, does anyone else get the impression Jake became a man so he could be a total dickhead.

It's common for men to act in the way he does and be accepted (even though they shouldn't) but women would just not be tolerated acting in that way. She would be termed a battaleaxe or a bossy bitch.

Hannah comes off as really nice but maybe a bit of a push over. They definitely play into their new gender roles in the relationship.