‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

[Haveastock]

The story of Jake Graf and Hannah Winterbourne’s surrogacy journey. They’re the photogenic transgender power couple who are patrons of Mermaid.

Their surrogate was an Irish woman and I followed Jake on Instagram during the whole drama of the birth happening amidst a pandemic. I actually shed a tear when I saw a photo of the baby in their arms and thought about a nameless woman in the background having to deal with the post-birth pain and bleeding without a baby to hold.

I’ve just watched a trailer where Jake said they were hoping for a boy first (they used their own eggs and donor sperm) as they knew how to handle boys - throw them around, be boisterous etc. and werevmore familiar with that then girls who, as far as they were concerned mainly played with glitter and dolls!!! Yes, they laughingly admitted they’re were as prone to gender stereotypes as the next man, woman etc.! How we laughed!?

I’m sure it will be an interesting programme and the baby is so gorgeous. As I’ve said before, I wish them all well. The baby won’t be short on love. But by championing Mermaids and their push for the affirmation model, no matter how young, Jake is indirectly encouraging a generation of young kids to start on a treatment pathway that will end up in depriving them of any chance of a biological child of their own. I find that absolutely tragic.

(Am sure they’re a bit frustrated that their programme is airing during the 48 hour Twitter blackout)

Hope no one minds me posting about it on this board. Am sure there will be a thread in Telly Addicts too. I imagine they’ll get a lot of positive feedback.

will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful". Would it really be the worst thing? It would actually be a good thing for the baby. I'm not warming to Jake

I felt the opposite. that this showed, very clearly, Jake's instinctive understanding of the mother/child bond. should Jake and Hannah ever split, it will be Jake that has custody of the child.

I know that a lot of women on the donor conceived boards here have decided not to tell their children they're using donor eggs.

I think that's wrong. The only reason to withhold that information is to protect yourself and actually it's not your information, it belongs to your child.

That’s interesting. I think it’s wrong too and I thought we’d left those days behind. One of my husband’s friends found out, completely by accident, that he was donor conceived when he joined Ancestry DNA and a whole bunch of half-siblings popped up. The truth always comes out. Admittedly easier when we’re talking about 1980s sperm banks, but it always comes out.

What are the chances of this baby growing up completely comfortable with their biological sex?

Slim to none. The precedent has already been set by other families.

Laura is the birth mother yes but the birth will need to be registered in Ireland not England.

I think this might complicate things when it comes to the parental order, not that it will be seen as a foreign birth but because the biological connection is through Jake's eggs do not sure if he can be listed as the father, I'm not sure they ask, you just fill in the forms don't you? Not sure if you have to provide your birth certificate as the parent applying? Anyway if Jake has a GRC Jake will have a new BC with the sex marker as Male.

Very interested to see what happens, I'm sure we will be hearing more.

@AltheaThoon

Just out of interest and yes I could Google, who is listed as the mother on the birth certificate in cases of surrogacy? It's the birth mother, isn't it?

Yes, it's the mother, and if she were married husband would be listed as the father. Then the surrogate parent has to apply for a parental order.

@FabulouslyGlamourousFerret

I like Hannah, Jake not so much. Why was Jake taking the lead with the baby? Surely it should have been Hannah, the mother, who held the baby first .. especially considering she already felt like an outsider during the process. Insensitive.

Really none of it should be happening. Animals aren't allowed to be removed from their mothers at birth yet apparently it's fine for a human infant to be whisked away on a plane when only a few hours old.

Surrogacy is so exploitative it should be banned as so many other countries rightly do.

I have talked about this many times on threads about surrogacy.

I used to be really pro surrogacy - so beautiful! A gift of life! How amazing!

And then I gave birth.

I was really ill after giving birth (massive pph) and spent the first few hours of dd’s life drifting in and out of consciousness. Dd was also looking a bit distressed and they were a bit concerned about her. The midwife got dh to place her on my chest so she could hear my heartbeat. And she immediately perked up.

I don’t think it can ever be right to purposely bring a life into the world and then immediately take it away from its biggest comfort.

I like Hannah, Jake not so much. Why was Jake taking the lead with the baby? Surely it should have been Hannah, the mother, who held the baby first .. especially considering she already felt like an outsider during the process. Insensitive

Jake took the lead because it was instinctive for Jake, and not for Hannah. Jake was the one with the maternal/parental feelings.

You con't control natural feelings to fit in with the desired outcome. It will always be, i suspect, that Jake fulfils the more motherly role, and Hannah, the more distant paternal role.That's not to say that Hannah cannot grow to love the baby, but it didn't seem automatic.

That's not to say

Pink clothes on the baby I see.

That tear rolling down the surrogate mother’s face was heartbreaking.

Wasn't there a previous thread where it was pointed out that the kennel club rules around breeding female dogs are more restrictive than the laws around surrogacy (goes off to find old thread)?

We are treating pet animals better than human babies.

I've actually warmed to Hannah - speaking openly about male puberty and the undeniable physical effects it has. Doesn't seem to be a biology-denier.

She couldn't bring herself to say the word 'sperm' though when talking about herself, she repeated 'gametes'.

It's tricky, they do seem to be very in love and Hannah seems quite sweet, and it was sad when Hannah was saying that she never bothered freezing sperm because it never occurred to her that she would find love. I am glad they found each other. They certainly play the gender roles don't they, Jake definitely 'wears the trousers' - that bit where they wouldn't get out the car on the ferry (of course they had to get out, who do they think they are?!)

But there are some things that don't sit right. They still seem quite self centred in it all, Hannah annoyed that she feels left out, the kicking off about not being able to see the baby straight away, maybe Laura was asleep or something? Laura's children didn't exactly seem comfortable with it, but that could just be editing.

£15,000 for expenses for Laura - who comes up with that figure, is it tax free? What is that covering exactly?

@Justhadathought

will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful". Would it really be the worst thing? It would actually be a good thing for the baby. I'm not warming to Jake

I felt the opposite. that this showed, very clearly, Jake's instinctive understanding of the mother/child bond. should Jake and Hannah ever split, it will be Jake that has custody of the child.

I just felt like the while thing was about what was best for them, not what was best for the baby. So it would be awful if the baby breastfed or had skin to skin with someone else FOR THEM. For the baby those things would be the most natural, comforting things to happen in the first hours out of the womb. It wouldn't ultimately affect their bond with the baby. They came across as selfish to me.

What are the chances of this baby growing up completely comfortable with their biological sex

I think it is possible, and also my best hope, that Jake will find having a daughter a healing experience, and that Jake will be able to make peace with themselves through this experience. Hopefully they will let the child just be themselves, and not foist rigid stereotypes, or alternatively try to counteract stereotypes by foisting the opposite.

I just felt like the while thing was about what was best for them, not what was best for the baby. So it would be awful if the baby breastfed or had skin to skin with someone else FOR THEM

Clearly Jake wants to be the 'mother'. I get that. Who wouldn't want to be the one to bond with their child? (And the child is genetically Jake's).

i thin

As Jake is an actor Jake is primary carer I believe and yes the biology element of being related to the child took over there. Jake held Millie first, took her into the home first, Hannah appeared very much in the background.

Hannah has the office job, although working from home during lock down I'm sure, Hannah will be expected to have a more 'brining home the bacon' role I suppose, with a streaky job in financial services. Would Hannah get mat leave? I agree with PP, I don't think Hannah is a biology denier from that programme but Hannah also referred to being like an infertile woman for Lorraine. It's pretending one thing for the cameras but believing something else. The military is a very disciplined, straight forward place to work.

The power dynamic was fascinating to watch, how they dealt with stress and supported each other but also wound each other up (like any couple).

They have both had a lot of change in their lives, transitioning and jobs changes (Hannah), house move, rapid romance, marriage and now a baby.

IDK I can't stop thinking about Laura.

My friend had a baby with a donor egg. Her DS has always known this age appropriately. To be honest he would have found out sooner or later as he has very distinctive features which look absolutely nothing like his mum or dad, so must look very much like the egg donor. But even if not, my friend always said that she would never keep something like that from him.

I am really interested in what Jake and Hannah will tell Millie about her origins? Presumably they will just have to come completely clean from the off, because there is surely no way that as Millie gets older she would ever believe that Hannah is a biological woman anyway?

It's tricky, they do seem to be very in love and Hannah seems quite sweet, and it was sad when Hannah was saying that she never bothered freezing sperm because it never occurred to her that she would find love

I didn't see it so much as Hannah thinking they "wouldn't find love", so much as Hannah couldn't imagine a time that they might want children.

Off the topic of surrogacy but I'd be interested to know how many gay, lesbian bi members of the armed forces have been awarded an MBE for their services to LGBT in the military.

The whole "expenses" think is a massive exercise in creative accounting.
Anyone else spend £15k on pregnancy (no buying cots and baby clothes etc remember)?

I spent maybe £200 max on clothes, new bras and treated myself to a lovely floaty dress I wore about once as it was a bloody awful wet cold summer. Other clothes passed around between friends.
Petrol for trips to clinic. £200 max I should think.
Struggling to think of any other expenses specifically pregnancy related and not related to the baby or afterwards.

Also total cost £45k

The fertility clinics are big business. That's where the money goes.

The power dynamic was fascinating to watch, how they dealt with stress and supported each other but also wound each other up (like any couple

This I did find interesting. There was a lot of play acting going on - in terms of stereotypical gendered behaviours/mannerisms. Interesting also, that Hannah drove the car, not Jake.

Off the topic of surrogacy but I'd be interested to know how many gay, lesbian bi members of the armed forces have been awarded an MBE for their services to LGBT in the military.

I noticed that. I wonder if Hannah got any medals for going to Afghanistan. I can't see the two awards equate.

Why are people talking about registering the birth in Ireland? Belfast is in Northern Ireland - that’s the U.K.

I followed their story on Instagram right from the start of their surrogacy. I remember feeling so uncomfortable that they were pushing the limits of the lockdown to get over to ‘Ireland’ (they were vague about whether it was Northern Ireland or Eire) And then they took the tiny baby away and onto a plane in the middle of the pandemic! I’m not sure if Laura expressed any colostrum to give to the baby? I thought that that was quite a risk to take a vulnerable newborn onto a plane.

‘She’s not the mother, the mothers sitting next to me in the car park’ has to be the quote of the programme. I wonder if they were talking to a midwife - I would love to have seen their face during that exchange.

My head is actually reeling after watching it. Hannah did come across well. So calm. I can’t imagine what they’ve been through during their life and I think they just feel so grateful to be in a loving relationship.

I hope it all goes well for them and Baby Millie. I Hope Laura is OK. But I hope any 12 year old girl watching the programme, who is struggling with their identity and who doesn’t like glitter/make-up realises that Jake is only able to have a biological baby because they went through their puberty and transitioned as an adult. No child should embark on a journey that renders them infertile before they can even understand the full implications of transitioning.

Anyone else spend £15k on pregnancy (no buying cots and baby clothes etc remember)?

That's exactly what I was thinking and so was wondering is that figure is a set figure by law or something? Who spends 15 grand on being pregnant?! Nothing to actually buy for the baby and the actual IVF is separately funded. Did the embryo implanting take place in NI? So did she even have any real travel expenses?

15 grand to a single mother living in Belfast is quite a lot of money really isn't it?

It's all just so convoluted.

Really what's been going through my head watching this is that old Kirsty McColl song: There's a guy works down the chip shop, swears he's Elvis.

I mean yeah ok so you're a guy apparently but you've got embryos and you're a woman with no female organs but that's the same as being female and infertile and oops look over here there's the mother, no don't look too closely.

@IloveJKRowling there were quite a few threads in the run up to the surrogacy Consultation last autumn. The kennel club certainly was discussed - the consultation does not propose limiting the number of times a woman can be a surrogate mother. There are at least a couple of UK surrogate mothers who have had multiple surrogate babies, Carole Horlock who has had 13 I think and Jill Hawkins who has had 10 and nearly died having the last set of twins.

The kennel club restrict breeding from dogs to just four litters to prevent breeding bitches being exploited....
The law limits licensed dog breeders to using a bitch six times, but the kennel club are more strict, so for pedigree dogs they won't register more than four litters.

But women can keep being bred from till their body packs up.