The Times:The detransitioners

[NeurotrashWarrior]

The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-detransitioners-what-happens-when-trans-men-want-to-be-women-again-fd22b7jhs

I'm afraid I don't have a share token.

2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times

When I told people I was going to create a photographic series about trans men who wanted to “detransition” and become women again, I was told to expect a backlash. Actually, I was told I would be crucified — look at what happened to JK Rowling recently. At the very least I’d better take a holiday from Twitter. One person told me I should not be focusing on detransitioners when trans people are still struggling for acceptance. But this would be to silence key voices when we should be having an inclusive and nuanced discussion about gender identity, especially at a time when the government is deciding how, or whether, it will reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

I was debating this with DH recently and he argues that there is far greater social acceptance of being gay than trans, and why would young people choose that harder path without good reason?

The problem in particular with with being gay, ( this is my theory anyway so not fact by any means ) is that men as class do not like and are almost afraid of being excluded. There are or were 2 things that men could not be involved in. Lesbian relationships and women only spaces. In fact arent Dr's and the like in fact told to watch out for women and children who dobt appear to be allowed to speak fir themselves and who are not allowed to be left alone. So to ke it stands to reason that men would somehow try and find a way in. And this is how. And with the online grooming that has already separated the vulnerable young girls from the people who love them by convincing them that their parents are what is standing in the way of happiness and being their true self. They then start with trying to convince them they are as bad as everyone else fir excluding transwomen from their dating pool. To go against that , well who do they really have left? This has to be one of the goals . Male bodied people fighting for their perceived right ( male entitlement basically) to be involved in a lesbian relationship. They cannot cope with not being the centre if the universe at all times.

I also think that the people who had procedures and hormone therapy should take responsibility for their own bodies and not jump on someone else's bandwagon without a long period of reflection and research.

Jump on whose bandwagon?

There is sufficient evidence that people's brains don't fully mature until the age of about 24-25. Even though human bodies physically mature during adolescence, the areas of the brain that deal with long-term decision making, rational thinking, impulsivity etc are the last to fully mature. If you add in mental health issues and trauma from abuse, then these faculties are further affected.

This is why young people with perfectly healthy bodies shouldn't be allowed make such permanent and serious surgical decisions until they have had time to resolve any underlying issues.

I don't want to be transphobic and I don't want to alienate my sister, but it seems I can't share my concerns or beliefs without being seen that way.

I’m mindful of not drifting into hyperbole, but it’s all a bit cult-y, isn’t it? Obviously, it’s not an organised sect with a single leader, but it does function similarly - it feels good, gives a sense of belonging, and the not-quite-explained fight for trans rights (what rights?) feels like fight with a moral and just purpose.
Borrowing techniques from those used by people with family members sucked into niche religions seems to be the most useful practical tactic - ask gentle, open ended questions, don’t let them force you into adversarial standpoints, de escalate as much as possible and don’t let them make you into an enemy. Just chip away, gently.

If all else fails, let them go, but keep the door open so they have someone to come back to.

theconversation.com/how-to-talk-someone-out-of-a-damaging-cult-68930

And you are absolutely right to keep reassuring your daughter re: the limitations of gender roles. If you need to do it in front of your sister, try and frame it as a chirpy, chatty question (eg ‘Aw, you like football, niece? That’s not very ladylike!’ ‘Do you really think so, Sister? Because in America, soccer is most often played by girls, look at the US World Cup team, they are excellent and their sporting brilliance isn’t dictated by how they perform masculinity or femininity, look at all the blonde ponytails! And in Afghanistan, the majority of skateboarders are girls! Etc etc)

Find sideways routes in, rather than confront dead on, if you see what I mean?

There are always people to talk to here, btw, you are never on your own with this stuff. There is an excellent regular poster with a transitioned sibling (albeit the other way) along with lots of mums of gender distressed girls, lots of women who worry that if they were young now, they would be at risk of being convinced into transition, and lots of women who watched their former husbands get sucked into the culti-ness of trans communities, never to return.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I don't want to be transphobic and I don't want to alienate my sister, but it seems I can't share my concerns or beliefs without being seen that way.

I’m mindful of not drifting into hyperbole, but it’s all a bit cult-y, isn’t it? Obviously, it’s not an organised sect with a single leader, but it does function similarly - it feels good, gives a sense of belonging, and the not-quite-explained fight for trans rights (what rights?) feels like fight with a moral and just purpose.
Borrowing techniques from those used by people with family members sucked into niche religions seems to be the most useful practical tactic - ask gentle, open ended questions, don’t let them force you into adversarial standpoints, de escalate as much as possible and don’t let them make you into an enemy. Just chip away, gently.

If all else fails, let them go, but keep the door open so they have someone to come back to.

theconversation.com/how-to-talk-someone-out-of-a-damaging-cult-68930

And you are absolutely right to keep reassuring your daughter re: the limitations of gender roles. If you need to do it in front of your sister, try and frame it as a chirpy, chatty question (eg ‘Aw, you like football, niece? That’s not very ladylike!’ ‘Do you really think so, Sister? Because in America, soccer is most often played by girls, look at the US World Cup team, they are excellent and their sporting brilliance isn’t dictated by how they perform masculinity or femininity, look at all the blonde ponytails! And in Afghanistan, the majority of skateboarders are girls! Etc etc)

Find sideways routes in, rather than confront dead on, if you see what I mean?

There are always people to talk to here, btw, you are never on your own with this stuff. There is an excellent regular poster with a transitioned sibling (albeit the other way) along with lots of mums of gender distressed girls, lots of women who worry that if they were young now, they would be at risk of being convinced into transition, and lots of women who watched their former husbands get sucked into the culti-ness of trans communities, never to return.

Thank you. Strangely my sister was a few years ago quite critical of it all herself and said if her and her best friend had been teens now they'd both have been trans but she was glad that wasn't the case as it would have been wrong for her. I did challenge that later on and she said she'd only said that to sound like she agreed with me... Who knows. I don't know what to hope for. That she's right and she will be happy living as a man, or that she discovers she was misled and detransistions. I suppose the former would be better, by the sounds of those stories in The Times!

Apart from the odd rant when I'm really triggered, I try not to be too GC around my kids as I don't want them saying something at school that sounds transphobic and gets them in trouble. I still haven't entirely worked out my stance on transgender in general, because while I recognise gender dysphoria I struggle too see why a mental health condition should be treated physically rather than with therapy (while also recognising that it works well for some people and means they can live happily which is great) and I'm still unsure of whether I even believe in a gender identity because I'm sure I don't have one (other than an awareness of my biological sex and how this influences how I'm treated by society) but according to my trans cousin (huge influence on my sister, also trans man) this is because I'm not trans...

Sorry, will stop derailing the thread. I usually briefly lurk here then run away feeling too uninformed to contribute!

Apart from the odd rant when I'm really triggered, I try not to be too GC around my kids as I don't want them saying something at school that sounds transphobic and gets them in trouble.

Being critical of sexist /restrictive /regresive gender roles isn't anything to do with transphobia. Although the fact so many of us feel (understandably) inhibited should be indicative of the foundations of gender/transsexual ideology.

threads
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3896788-Important-series-of-articles-by-Dr-Em-Sexist-History-at-the-Heart-of-the-Science-on-Transsexualism-Part-I-Benjamin-Ihlenfeld-Money-Ehrhardt

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3900484-Dr-Em-article-Sexist-History-at-the-Heart-of-the-Science-on-Transsexualism-Part-II-Robert-Stoller-True-Trans-an-ideology-which-is-antithetical-to-feminism

God, the poor loves. The sexual and emotional abuses, the homophobia, the rigid gender roles, difficult periods - so many detransitioned people's accounts seen to be built upon trauma. Surely the way to care for a young person who thinks they are trans is to work with them to try to find what triggered it.

Apologies, I misunderstood. In my opinion there are distinct differences between the intentions and driving factors of males and females. Understanding these sex-based differences is very important.

Sorry, @R0wantrees, further misunderstanding. No, I agree with you on this as well. In fact, that's one of the major things I've learnt since reading about this issue in more detail.

My point, though, is whether the other poster's assertion is totally correct that it's much easier for a MtF trans person than a FtM one, in that the former don't need to undergo any medical interventions but just put on a frock, lippy, etc. What I'd seen in at least one case was a young woman who dressed and presented butch, if you like, but also called herself "John" with no apparent physical changes. I was just wondering if there is also a large subset of females who also declare themselves to be trans but have no intention of undergoing surgery, hormone treatment, etc.

GCGayDad Apologies again, I think I may need to put my glasses on and have another coffee!

It has seemed to me that most of the young women you're describing would likely identify as Non-Binary and therefore transgender.
They seem mostly to be identifying out of being a woman, into the trans community but without identifying as men.

That's just my impression of course.

M K Fain's article is worth reading (if you haven't already)
4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

i don't know about anyone else but, If I am forced to have a gender , then I could only honestly say that my gender did not match my sex.

In my youth, All through my teens, I would have said I was a boy, now I would say none binary. I would not feel right saying my gender was woman or feminine or such, although I am clearly female

However I wouldn't align myself with the trans community
Firstly, because I think there are people who genuinely have a severe affliction for whom I would like the trans label held for, I think the profligate use of the term trans to describe oneself cheapens what some people experience and may prevent them getting the support they need

Secondly because they don't seem terribly welcoming. There is nothing wrong in being mismatched. I don't need to take anything for it or have any treatment. Although if certain treatments we no more serious than getting a tattoo I think I would change my body.

And then, My gender is not why I have suffered abuse. My gender is not why my promotion was delayed. Sex is the reason that my gender doesn't match what people expect. The root of the evil is my sex not my gender. If my sex was Male my gender would be just fine.

It would be interesting to find out how many young women present as men without any intention of hormones or surgery.
I would also like to know how many of them bind because that is a physical, damaging painful change.
There's no such thing as male breast in the same way that female penis is a thing.
The other problem comes back to the old what does presenting as a man even mean?
I wear masculine clothes, I could shave my head and call myself John but 99.9% of people would know im a woman at first glance.

• Many of the women speaking about the this specific aspect of the trans/feminism rights clash are mothers of trans identifying daughters so sometimes they choose to later delete their own footprint, which is completely understandable.

Just because it’s less visible, please don’t assume it’s because we don’t care - for many of us it’s the absolute biggest priority.*

^This.

I was debating this with DH recently and he argues that there is far greater social acceptance of being gay than trans, and why would young people choose that harder path without good reason?

The answer is that this may well be true for adult men, but it is definitely not true for teenage girls in secondary school. Different social situations, different demographic. For these girls, there is much greater social acceptance of being a transboy than of being a butch lesbian.

I'm always struck by the self reflection, the honesty and the reflectiveness in the accounts of women who have detransitioned, as well as the courage it takes these days to speak out about this. These are strong, intelligent women with critical thinking who were still failed by the system. Heartbreaking to read.

I think childhood and school are much more sexually stereotyped than adult life. As an adult there isn't "boys" sport and "girls" sport and boys and girls interests to the same extent, you also have a greater variety of clothes. Adults can be less cliquey too and if there is a clique you dislike it's easy to avoid it.
I never understood why so many women got worked up about other mothers at the school gates. If you don't find anyone there you click with just pick up your kid and look for friends elsewhere.
I think the way the political, educational, medical and police establishments have caved in to TRA lobby groups like Mermaids and Stonewall and not been objective on this issue is appalling. Our society seemed to go almost overnight from largely ignoring and severely disciplining children to deciding they know exactly what they want at primary school and should be given what they ask for despite evidence showing brains don't mature until your mid 20s and that children and teenagers (and many adults) are easily influenced by others. Parents became terrified to parent.
The limitations and disadvantages of trying to change gender wasn't spelled out clearly.

Reading these types of stories breaks my heart. People are being failed by the system. Left alone with no human support, just drugs and surgery and a brittle "you're fixed now".

It's 2020, and yet we still as a society don't seem able to deal with psychological trauma in any meaningful way.

An incredible article. I read online and then went out and bought the paper (can't afford to subscribe) purely because I think they should be rewarded for being brave and publishing it. I had to go to a few shops to find a copy - now hoping there's lots of GC mumsnetters round here doing the same!

I feel I should tell The Times why I bought it, anyone know the best contact?

JKR retweeted the article and a quote.

A few of the women featured in the article thanked her and the others. Many accused her of transphobia, the women replied to them (Watson/ Sinead and Thomasin) and were completely ignored.

Both said it wasn't transphobia that made them detransition, and were still ignored.

As far as I can tell a detransitioned woman can suffer from misogyny, transphobia and also sexism.

Apologies if this has been already posted but here is a link to the whole article - no share token time limitations.

archive.is/y4LtD

Link to JKR tweet and replies
mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1282343711620431875

Thank you JKR for not giving up on this, and keeping on using your platform for women. Thanks to the detransitioned women who responded to her.

This was such a powerful article and my heart breaks for the poor women (and men too) who went down this route only to find out that it wasn’t the answer and are left with the consequences- one poor woman (hope they are ok with that reference) will always have an Adam’s apple and deep voice- she’s only 21 ffs.

This is the single biggest scandal of this mess and I hope the bubble bursts soon to stop others facing permanent damage.

Look at the replies and lies under Rowling’s tweet:

“It’s rare” Mermaids quoting study inaccurately
“It’s no different to a pro lifer”
“It’s because of transphobia”
“Just shut up”
“You’re a monster”

They cannot handle the fact these women exist at all.

When I shared JKR's statement on FB - the immediate response was that individuals only transition because of transphobia.

I just couldn't form a response.

I am part way through the article. There wasn't any copies left when I went to the shop this evening.

sorry should be detransition

Great thread from Allison Bailey.

twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1282398795519623169?s=21

This is just heartbreaking. And watching TRAs sneer over it or dismiss it is disgusting.