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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Times:The detransitioners

173 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 12/07/2020 06:35

The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-detransitioners-what-happens-when-trans-men-want-to-be-women-again-fd22b7jhs

I'm afraid I don't have a share token.

2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times

When I told people I was going to create a photographic series about trans men who wanted to “detransition” and become women again, I was told to expect a backlash. Actually, I was told I would be crucified — look at what happened to JK Rowling recently. At the very least I’d better take a holiday from Twitter. One person told me I should not be focusing on detransitioners when trans people are still struggling for acceptance. But this would be to silence key voices when we should be having an inclusive and nuanced discussion about gender identity, especially at a time when the government is deciding how, or whether, it will reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 12/07/2020 08:58

@Soontobe60 absolutely. As a teacher of nearly 20 years I see all that so clearly too. Including the young gay boys. I taught a young boy with asd who was obsessed with Disney princesses in exactly the same way as peers were with Thomas the tank engine. Luckily he was seen by the Tavistock over 10 years ago and they recognised he had no actual issues with his body, it was all confusion around gender. Which I'd already, without understanding it, been trying to tackle. Eg his belief that women didn't play football so he wouldn't in pe. All that took was a quick google. The issues and frustration got worse when he was told by older children he literally "had a woman stuck inside his head and he could have an operation to fix it." Which led a couple of years later to the Tavistock.

I feel like we are going backwards.

I'm so cross with many teachers enabling this shit today, Moffat in particular.

OP posts:
Iamhangingin · 12/07/2020 09:01

Beautiful but difficult to read article. I am so sad that many young lesbians no longer have physical places to meet and find their tribe.

I came out in the late 90's, worked in a gay pub as did many of my friends. There were a huge cross section of different gay people, lots of confident butch women. It felt like home for us. Those venues have all closed many years ago now and the online alternative doesn't seem to be a safe space for many people. I always felt I had someone watching out for me as I made the (many) inevitable teen mistakes and worked out who I was.

Not only do we need better mental health services, but stronger communities. For all the rainbows and LGBT singling, at a basic level there isn't a strong community for any people.

SugarPlumFairyCakes · 12/07/2020 09:05

I will be buying The Times today.
Sitting here in tears after reading. How can this be happening?
Such brave women, I hope they all find peace and happiness.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/07/2020 09:10

@rogdmum

”I've read this same sentiment on the r/detrans group a few times, and from detransitioners on twitter as well. I think feminists do need to be mindful of the language we use around transitioning. We are basically the only community who care about detransitioners and we need to be careful not to alianate them or cause them further emotional harm.”

ByGrab I completely agree. I’ve been appalled by some of the retweets I’ve seen by some GCers, particularly where the detransitioner has asked them to delete it and the tweeter has refused (and in some cases blocked the detransitioner!). Their stories are not for us to appropriate for a cause. Some organisations are just as bad- Object UK have had some absolutely vile tweets about gender distressed adolescents and detransitioners. I’ve complained to them, but they don’t give a crap.

That's really awful behaviour from those GCers and groups, rogdmum. Important point raised about language and terms used in relation to detransitioners and their experiences.
Mawbags · 12/07/2020 09:15

This reply has been deleted

Copyright Talk Guidelines.

Mawbags · 12/07/2020 09:15

There you go

BatleyTownswomensGuild · 12/07/2020 09:16

Jaw-dropping. Will be buying a copy of the Times today. Thanks for posting, OP.

If any of these detrans women are on here know that you are welcome. We stand by you. Thanks

Cwenthryth · 12/07/2020 09:23

Objectively, a mastectomised female body is mutilated, in a technical/medical sense. The problem is that this is a highly sensitive, emotional and personal issue so it doesn’t matter if a word is used as a neutral descriptor, if it’s then perceived by the person being described as a pejorative term, individually criticising them or even worse blaming them for what has happened.

I think there is also an element sometimes, with the popular preception of ‘mutilated’ also being a synonym for ‘disgusting’, of the term being used as a shock tactic by campaigners, to emphasise the severity of what is happening. With very reasonable intent - to draw attention to this massive injustice being meted out against women. But it is somewhat tone deaf (to put it mildly) if it is perceived by the very women you are seeking to defend as a personal insult.

TheShoesa · 12/07/2020 09:23

I feel so sad for the women in the article.

It struck me once again, that the processes that females are expected to go through to be trans or non binary are so much more aggressive and permanent than males. This is what happens when 'woman' and 'man' are reduced to external appearance and stereotypes.

In other words, to be a transwoman, a male can dress in 'womens' clothes and put on make up, perhaps stuff a bra. If he later decides this was the wrong decision as these women have done, he can revert to type. If he develops breasts from taking oestrogen, or has breast implants these can be removed (although I appreciate this is an invasive procedure).

To be a transman or nonbinary as a female seems to involve breast binding at the very least (which can have long term health implications) or surgery to remove breasts. Some of the effects of testosterone are permanent. There is almost no going back to what you were if that medical path is taken and your mind is changed at a later date. And some of these girls are so young. I have seen Lee's story before and feel so sorry for her. I have to accept my body the way it is now. On the outside people see a little bloke. Inside I’m a traumatised little girl. But I’m more accepting of myself for the first time ever. I just wish I’d been helped to accept myself earlier.

Those involved in gender transition assessment need to have much more robust practices in place, or there are going to be many, many more of these stories in the future. I am so angry that in the rush to make trans be seen as 'not an illness' people are being permanently damaged.

DontCallMeBaby · 12/07/2020 09:32

“ A lot of people have said to me I was never trans. Well, I was. I was seen by my GP, the gender identity clinic — people accepted it, I changed my passport, all my documentation.”

I don’t understand why - well, other than it suits the narrative - anyone seems to think this makes it okay. Oh, you went through this life-changing thing, took drugs, had surgery, and you realised you didn’t need to, but that doesn’t matter because you were never what we said you were? No one would say it didn’t matter that someone was subjected to experimental, invasive treatment for cancer because they then turned out never to have had it.

Broomfondle · 12/07/2020 09:35

I realised I didn’t need simply to hate my female body, I could change it

Thank you to the brave women who spoke their words and shared their body for the photos. I thought they were beautiful.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/07/2020 09:42

Detransitioners are the apostates of the gender identity belief system. Similar phrases and excuses are made about religious apostates - they were never true believers, they didn't really believe in god, they only left the religion to lead a life of sin and badmouth the religion, they were faking their belief, they only abandoned god / religion because of their bad personal experiences - we should feel sorry for them, and so on.

I think apostates are feared and hated the most because they have an actual insight into the religious or ideological community, and it challenges what it means to believe in these ideas. Similar mechanisms seem to apply between detransitioners and the trans demographics.

PopperUppleton · 12/07/2020 09:48

Shows just how powerful testosterone is. The changes it makes to female bodies are irreversible.

teawamutu · 12/07/2020 09:49

Extraordinary, heart-wrenching piece.

RoyalCorgi · 12/07/2020 10:00

It's a brilliant, heart-rending piece. I hope the powers-that-be read it and take heed. One thing I don't understand is why doctors are able to perform double mastectomies and hysterectomies on young women who are perfectly physically healthy. Doesn't this breach the fundamental principle of "do no harm"?

By the way, to those saying this should be freely available to everyone to read, can I just ask how far do you extend this view elsewhere in your life? "This hairdresser is so good their haircuts ought to be free"? "This photographer is truly excellent and so shouldn't charge for their photographs?"

If you want quality, you have to pay for it.

NeurotrashWarrior · 12/07/2020 10:06

Dontcallmebaby Thomasin has been accused of this as she didnt take hormones or have surgeries.

And yet she was completely on the trans pathway and at that time was classed as trans - which is why the "trans umbrella" is so damaging. She was to all intents and purposes "trans."

She did however bind a lot and has damage to her posture as a result and had (still has I think) costochondritis.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 12/07/2020 10:07

So much courage in there. Lee’s story was just heartbreaking.

Lee, 62
(extract from article in OP)
"I transitioned when I was 44. I thought I’d be a different person as a man, happier and more confident, but my life was still screwed up. I saw a counsellor for five years, which helped me understand why my life has been so complicated. I thought I wanted to be male. But how would I know what it’s like to be a male? I’ve never been one. I can’t be. I’m an approximation of a male on the outside, but really I’m a woman on testosterone who has had surgery" (continues)

"I see the cause of my transition as being my mother, grandmother and father. My brother was idolised by my mother and grandmother. He was the golden child who could do no wrong, their “little darling”. I was a “little heathen” and a “hussy”; I could do nothing right. My mother was always angry with me and very critical. I spent most of my childhood saying sorry and pleading with her. I hated my body from when I was a child. I thought I was fat. I hated the frilly dresses my mother would put me in. I wanted to wear the same clothes as my brother and have the same haircut as him, but she wouldn’t let me. My body felt like a prison when puberty started. I thought my periods were like a nightmare, it seemed so wrong to have blood coming out of my body.

When I was 15 my father got in touch with us after many years. I was pleased to hear from him. He would take my brother and me out and he bought us things — a stereo, clothes — and gave us money. He seemed like the perfect father. He invited us to stay at his house and my mother didn’t want us to go, but wouldn’t say why not. Of course I went anyway.

The first evening he raped me. He came in the next morning and he did it again. Afterwards I think I sat in the lavatory for about an hour. It’s like I didn’t know where I was.

Later my mother told me how violent he had been. She told me about a time he’d hung me out of the window by my ankle when I was a toddler to scare her. I have a feeling I was sexually abused as a child before she left him.

One morning when I was 44 I saw a female-to-male transgender person on television. I’d never seen one before. I thought: “That could be me.” It seemed like it might be the answer. I went to see a gender doctor privately in London. On the first appointment he said, “Let’s not waste any more time,” and injected me with testosterone. It was what I wanted, but I now think it was wrong — what I really needed was psychotherapy. I was screwed up. It was my head that needed help, not my body. I really liked the testosterone. It took a long time to get a beard and body hair, but I built up muscle very quickly." (continues)

Lee bravely went public about her experiences out of deep concern for others in similar circumstances.
Flowers

Newsnight 26 Nov 2019
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDi-jFVBLA8

Daily Mail November 2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414138-Im-not-meant-to-be-a-bloke-Woman-who-changed-gender-to-become-man-called-Lee-says-sex-swap-was-a-huge-mistake

Melroses · 12/07/2020 10:08

@NeurotrashWarrior

I know Thomasin who is in the piece.

What horrifies me is her description of how she was groomed by a TW and online.

When schools contribute to the ideology, they hammer the nail in the coffin.

Someone DS knew transitioned and posted about the whole thing on an open FB. There was indeed the inevitable TW hand holder posting.

There was also family saying they were beautiful as they were and not to take things too far, when they went for the plastic surgery in Belgium (it seems to be the place to go).

There was an incredible air of confidence during this time and for a while afterwards which seems to have evaporated now.

NotBadConsidering · 12/07/2020 10:10

@NonnyMouse1337

Detransitioners are the apostates of the gender identity belief system. Similar phrases and excuses are made about religious apostates - they were never true believers, they didn't really believe in god, they only left the religion to lead a life of sin and badmouth the religion, they were faking their belief, they only abandoned god / religion because of their bad personal experiences - we should feel sorry for them, and so on.

I think apostates are feared and hated the most because they have an actual insight into the religious or ideological community, and it challenges what it means to believe in these ideas. Similar mechanisms seem to apply between detransitioners and the trans demographics.

Great post, spot on.
Needmoresleep · 12/07/2020 10:14

@NeurotrashWarrior
There will be copyright attached to the article, which is why only extracts or share tokens are allowed

There has been a recent trend for new posters to ask for articles to be pasted in full. I worry about this as it is effectively causing MN to break the law. I suggest you report your post and ask for it to be removed.

Needmoresleep · 12/07/2020 10:16

So sorry. Meant to be @Mawbags. No idea why my phone auto corrected.

NeurotrashWarrior · 12/07/2020 10:16

Apostates, absolutely spot on.

Regarding language, I saw a random tweet saying that many retransition, but no actuallinks the this.

But if we consider emotive language used to describe a detransed woman, such as mutilated, there is certainly an issue there regarding acceptance and validity as a woman.

The Times:The detransitioners
OP posts:
happydappy2 · 12/07/2020 10:27

Brilliantly written article-shining a light on the reality of the situation-it doesn't often end well for females. The timing of it is brilliant.

Cwenthryth · 12/07/2020 10:29

TBH I find the whole idea of “validity” of a person problematic full stop. No human is invalid - it’s a term that should be kept for warranties on kitchen appliances! The concept of a person seeking validity, externally or otherwise, doesn’t seem helpful to anyone.

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