The Times:The detransitioners

[NeurotrashWarrior]

The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-detransitioners-what-happens-when-trans-men-want-to-be-women-again-fd22b7jhs

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2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times

When I told people I was going to create a photographic series about trans men who wanted to “detransition” and become women again, I was told to expect a backlash. Actually, I was told I would be crucified — look at what happened to JK Rowling recently. At the very least I’d better take a holiday from Twitter. One person told me I should not be focusing on detransitioners when trans people are still struggling for acceptance. But this would be to silence key voices when we should be having an inclusive and nuanced discussion about gender identity, especially at a time when the government is deciding how, or whether, it will reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

on the other hand I have found it hard to hear some feminists refer to detransitioned women as mutilated

I think this is because they may have realised they are not trans but they are still looking out from inside the system. But I wonder if they will feel the same in ten years time?

Isn't it interesting that Laura Dodsworth's other collections of photos (showing breasts, penises and vulvas) were all published by the Guardian? I wonder if she approached them for this project.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/09/me-and-my-vulva-100-women-reveal-all-photographs

With regard to girls having to go so much further to transition while men can just put on a dress and make up.
Ive always thought it odd and illogical that the idiology allows for a female penis but you never hear about a male vagina or male breasts.
Says a lot I think.
I feel so sad and furious after reading that.
Just heartbreaking.

Wow. Those stories cover basically everything its like a game if bingo.

Homophobia
Abuse/rape
Trauma
Unwanted attention
Eating disorders
Online grooming
Difficult periods

Terrifying that the course of "treatment" given was not to work through their common and very real problems that will not go away whatever they try to change about themselves , but to affirm the hatred of their bodies . To validate the homophobes taunts by confirming they weren't a lesbian but a straight man. And to go right along with the victim blaminh by allowing them to think and truly believe that if they look and act a certain way what happened to them wont happen again.

And then to be completely rejected by their online trans friends because unsurprisingly transition didnt change any thing with regards to psychological issues.

How is that remotely ethical

Those poor poor girls/women. They are so brave to speak out

@Cwenthryth

TBH I find the whole idea of “validity” of a person problematic full stop. No human is invalid - it’s a term that should be kept for warranties on kitchen appliances! The concept of a person seeking validity, externally or otherwise, doesn’t seem helpful to anyone.

Agree. ‘Valid’ applies to something that can be questioned - whether there is evidence to back it up. ‘I am valid’ is nonsense if they mean ‘here I am’ as there is no question that they are not there. If what they really mean is ‘my ideas about myself are valid’ then they may be but they may not be. If a man stood up and said ‘I am a woman’ that would not be a valid thing to say; they are not a woman.

they are still looking out from inside the system

Perhaps an element of that. But if you want to engage with someone, work with them, help them and support them, if you’re using language that alienates them from you, you’re not going to be successful. I think it’s important to be clear that no blame is being placed on detransitioners for how they feel about the language others use to describe their bodies.

I’ve had similar considerations around the terminology around DV - ‘victims’ vs ‘survivors’. Many people reject the term ‘victim’. It is still correct from a neutral linguistic point of view, but if some of the people being referred to reject it and find it offensive, then it’s use becomes divisive and unhelpful in the ultimate aim of supportive those who have experienced DV.

If a man stood up and said ‘I am a woman’ that would not be a valid thing to say; they are not a woman.
Well, quite, but IMO this man’s statement is just as nonsensical as “this sofa is a bicycle”! This example man is not invalid, he’s just not a woman.

I'm a reluctant Times subscriber, but reading that article overnight pretty much justified a whole year of fees.

Really struggling to understand how such full scale medical intervention can be undertaken so precipitately.

@blubellsarebells

With regard to girls having to go so much further to transition while men can just put on a dress and make up. Ive always thought it odd and illogical that the idiology allows for a female penis but you never hear about a male vagina or male breasts. Says a lot I think. I feel so sad and furious after reading that. Just heartbreaking.

The male vagina is absolutely a thing. There are stories of gay men being harassed or insulted on social media by trans men because they refuse to date women who have transitioned. Expecting a gay man to be interested in a 'male' vagina is as homophobic as expecting a lesbian to be accepting of a 'female' penis.

You don't hear about the male vagina too often though because women are generally not as pushy or domineering as men, so even if they transition they are not exactly going to be overly intimidating and coercing gay men to sleep with them. Men in general can safely ignore pushy trans men, although some might have sex with them. Women on the other hand can feel more intimidated by trans women who are being pushy for sex.

One of the defences from TRAs is that no one is “rushed” and the waiting times for hormones is still long - too long in their eyes. Firstly this shows that, around the world, this just isn’t true.

Second, it shows that it takes several years to process these issues properly. Sometimes decades.

And finally it shows how desperate the world is for therapists who specialise in gender issues but are neutral. Should be mandatory to see someone like this.

I recently got a Times subscription and this was the first article showing this morning after reading it and many comments I came straight here to see whether it was mentioned (of course it was!).

I read this and I see my sister. It makes me very sad and scared for her, but I can't send it to her because she will see it as an attack on her and me being transphobic.

My sister is 24, has been socially transitioned for just over a year and started testosterone last week after going private (couple of phone calls, load of money and suddenly she can have whatever she wants). She's currently saving for top surgery abroad. My main reservations with her being trans are all the other issues that she has - bipolar, possible autism, some SA as a child and very difficult childhood with mentally ill mother (who passed away last year) and a lot of DV while she was growing up, I'm quite a lot older and missed most of that but always tried to look out for her. She was Asexual for a while, lesbian for a while, I feel she is desperate to find an identity that will fix all her problems and am terrified she will mutilate her body and find she is no happier for it.

I apologise for saying She but she's my little sister and I can't see her as anything other than the scared little girl I spent years trying to protect. My heart breaks at what she's going through and I wish I could understand better.

I see a lot on MN about how trans women aren't women and men are taking our rights away, but less about the (actual majority of trans youth) FtM transitioners and why they feel the need to no longer be women, which is actually more concerning for me from (my interpretation of) a feminist point of view.

When I read about the 23 year being given a full hysterectomy, that took my breath away.

Each of these women are clearly very intelligent and I was really impressed by how they were able to self reflect about something so difficult and recent.

Do they have a charity that we can support?

@Cwenthryth

they are still looking out from inside the system

Perhaps an element of that. But if you want to engage with someone, work with them, help them and support them, if you’re using language that alienates them from you, you’re not going to be successful. I think it’s important to be clear that no blame is being placed on detransitioners for how they feel about the language others use to describe their bodies.

I’ve had similar considerations around the terminology around DV - ‘victims’ vs ‘survivors’. Many people reject the term ‘victim’. It is still correct from a neutral linguistic point of view, but if some of the people being referred to reject it and find it offensive, then it’s use becomes divisive and unhelpful in the ultimate aim of supportive those who have experienced DV.

But not all women who suffer domestic violence survive so if we are addressing the problem of domestic violence we can’t just talk about survivors. Equally we need to be careful to balance the need not to alienate individuals with the need to be clear and truthful rather than using euphemism which minimise what is being inflicted upon them. To say ‘top surgery’, ‘bottom surgery’, ‘hormone affirming treatment’, ‘pausing puberty’ minimises the horror that is happening to young children and makes it easier to turn a blind eye.

we need to be careful to balance the need not to alienate individuals with the need to be clear and truthful rather than using euphemism which minimise what is being inflicted upon them.

Very good point, I agree. There is always a risk that softening language lessens the impact of what is being said. Balance to be had as you say.

I’m going to go and buy a paper copy shortly. It’s a hugely important article and one that should be seen by every teacher who champions changing a child’s name on the school register, with or without parental consent.

The participants are truly stunning and brave.

I'd be interested to know if they got any abuse, or how much, when becoming trans and how this compares to any abuse they may/may not have received detransing.

And indeed support they may or may not have received.

When I read about the 23 year being given a full hysterectomy, that took my breath away.

Lucy moved a whole room to tears with her story at the MCR detransitioners event.

Re: using clear, non euphemistic language, Lucy described herself as ‘castrated’.

"With regard to girls having to go so much further to transition while men can just put on a dress and make up.
Ive always thought it odd and illogical that the idiology allows for a female penis but you never hear about a male vagina or male breasts.
Says a lot I think."

Will read the article later, but I wanted to examine the above statement a little. Isn't it the case that some women (generations young women) also simply "dress as men", cut their hair short, etc. and give themselves a male name and pronouns without actually physically transitioning? There was a young woman who worked in the cafe near my office who seemed to fit this description.

@TerribleCustomerCervix (awesome name!)

www.detransadv.com/

*generally young women

I’m going to go and buy a paper copy shortly. It’s a hugely important article and one that should be seen by every teacher who champions changing a child’s name on the school register, with or without parental consent.

The participants are truly stunning and brave.

This ^^

Guardian reading teachers should have been aware of these serious Safeguarding issues though.

May 2018
'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'
(extract)
Davies-Arai says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.” (continues)
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

I see a lot on MN about how trans women aren't women and men are taking our rights away, but less about the (actual majority of trans youth) FtM transitioners and why they feel the need to no longer be women, which is actually more concerning for me from (my interpretation of) a feminist point of view

Yes it is horrifying and I do wonder if the fact that as a generation the kids and young adults have become so incapable of thinking and debating has anything to do with it.

We used to have all sorts of discussions at school all the time. Whatever your point if view on a subject you still had to listen and come back with counter points. Hurt feelings were never an answer. No one stormed off. And we developed the habit of questioning and looking up information after if we wanted to know more.

We have become a population desperate for quick fixes lazy. Impatient. Gone are the days of waiting for things to arrive. We get on amazon prime instead .

Abdbuts the same with this. We don't devate or ask questions or think long term. Questions hurt feelings and invalidate people and I want to feel better and I want it now. Therapy takes time. Patience. There are likely setbacks along the way and quite possibly it gets worse before it gets better.

With the ability to think long term and the habit of healthy critical thinking out the window fir everyone involved we have reached a point where not only does everyone have to agree with you they will remove and silence those who don't

Something that 30 years ago in school would never have happened. You'd have had to come up with something far better than hurt feelings.

How do we expect these kids to grow up and deal with everything life throws at them if we remove every source of hurt feelings along the way.

There are millions if people all over the world who deal with God knows what every day. Little girls married to men 4 times their age . Kids walking 15 miles a day just to get water. Men and women living on the streets etc and yet none of them have the rates of suicide and self harm that these kids do. When did we stop teaching resilience and critical thinking.

Seems very much a problem of the developed Western world where no one can seem to handle being told no.
As parents our job is to take care of our children and that means sometimes we have to upset them to keep them.safe and to teach them right from wrong etc.

When did we opt out of taking the hit on this and start seeking immediate relief instead. Even when long term its harmful.

The adults involved are cowards. The lot of them and still they won't take responsibility fir what they have put these poor young people through.

I would never refer to a woman who had a double mastectomy due to breast cancer as being ‘mutilated’ so I do see the issue, however it’s hard to not think of it in these terms as these are healthy girls/women who are having these procedures done unnecessarily

I wanted to examine the above statement a little. Isn't it the case that some women (generations young women) also simply "dress as men", cut their hair short, etc. and give themselves a male name and pronouns without actually physically transitioning?

Many girls chose short hair and rejected dresses and skirts not to 'dress as men' but simply rejecting the constraints of femininity.

I asked for my long hair to be cut off when I was five years old. In the days before conditioner, the morning ritual of detangling my hair was painful and I found my plaits annoying.