The Times:The detransitioners

[NeurotrashWarrior]

The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-detransitioners-what-happens-when-trans-men-want-to-be-women-again-fd22b7jhs

I'm afraid I don't have a share token.

2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times

When I told people I was going to create a photographic series about trans men who wanted to “detransition” and become women again, I was told to expect a backlash. Actually, I was told I would be crucified — look at what happened to JK Rowling recently. At the very least I’d better take a holiday from Twitter. One person told me I should not be focusing on detransitioners when trans people are still struggling for acceptance. But this would be to silence key voices when we should be having an inclusive and nuanced discussion about gender identity, especially at a time when the government is deciding how, or whether, it will reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

Wow, this is such a moving article. Kudos, Laura Dodsworth.

Thegreatwave, tell them to hang out on the detrans sub reddit. No one has detransed due to transphobia.,

Trans people who support the detransitioned are getting ignored!

I have a subscription that's digital + the physical paper on Sundays. Really works for me.

Allison Bailey is just so brilliant. I hope she’ll be in the House of Lords In future. Just the kind of clear-eyed, beautifully articulate anti-misogynistic thinker that women need in their corner.

The irony is that Thomasin and Sinead are the young people that Mermaids take people’s money so they can support them. They can be seen on that thread ignoring them and telling people that they don’t matter.
If they were a good organisation they would have support for desisted and detransitioners even though they are small in number.
Many of the people who read the article and were moved by the stories were potential Mermaids supporters. One trans organisation did put a supportive tweet on the Sunday Times thread. Their behaviour will have shown a lot of people who they are.

I saw TRAs yelling at people in the thread saying that if we really cared about detransitioners, we’d want more research into what causes detransition.

Apparently this person must not have known that TRAs forced the only proposed study of detransition to be defunded (too “controversial”) and consistently work to discredit The only existing study of young women who suddenly develop a trans identity post-puberty.

NeurotrashWarrior: "we are lying to our children when we tell them people can change sex.

It's all in there, the issues around gender stereotypes, sexual abuse, rape, sexism and misogyny, body hatred, anorexia.

Trans is how it's all being swept under the carpet."

The trans story is just about the only thing left to justify misogyny and sexism. (It stopped being respectable to pretend that misogyny was A-OK on its own merits.) That may be why the trans dogma, unlike any of the actual civil rights movements, has spread with such weird speed. So many people trying to get on patriarchy's last lifeboats now that the ship has sunk.

(Don't get me wrong. Patriarchy still has all the power in the world. But it's lost what the Chinese used to call the Mandate of Heaven. It has power but it's no longer a Good Thing. Really, it's all over but the shouting. Be interesting to be able to live for enough centuries to see even the shouting die.)

@quixote9

NeurotrashWarrior: "we are lying to our children when we tell them people can change sex.

It's all in there, the issues around gender stereotypes, sexual abuse, rape, sexism and misogyny, body hatred, anorexia.

Trans is how it's all being swept under the carpet."

The trans story is just about the only thing left to justify misogyny and sexism. (It stopped being respectable to pretend that misogyny was A-OK on its own merits.) That may be why the trans dogma, unlike any of the actual civil rights movements, has spread with such weird speed. So many people trying to get on patriarchy's last lifeboats now that the ship has sunk.

(Don't get me wrong. Patriarchy still has all the power in the world. But it's lost what the Chinese used to call the Mandate of Heaven. It has power but it's no longer a Good Thing. Really, it's all over but the shouting. Be interesting to be able to live for enough centuries to see even the shouting die.)

That's a really interesting thought.

That may be why the trans dogma, unlike any of the actual civil rights movements, has spread with such weird speed. So many people trying to get on patriarchy's last lifeboats now that the ship has sunk.

Completely. On another thread it's being described how Jim Davidson, that bastion of allying feminist thought, wholly supports the TWAW mantra, as does Frankie Boyle. On a thread about Miriam Margoyles telling JK she's conservative...

As I said on that thread; it's the woke invisibility cloak for hard core misogynists and mra.

(Actually I didn't exactly say that; that's a better phrase.)

Thread for baffling context:

Miriam Margolyes being a massive transphobe www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3966543-Miriam-Margolyes-being-a-massive-transphobe

@quixote9

NeurotrashWarrior: "we are lying to our children when we tell them people can change sex.

It's all in there, the issues around gender stereotypes, sexual abuse, rape, sexism and misogyny, body hatred, anorexia.

Trans is how it's all being swept under the carpet."

The trans story is just about the only thing left to justify misogyny and sexism. (It stopped being respectable to pretend that misogyny was A-OK on its own merits.) That may be why the trans dogma, unlike any of the actual civil rights movements, has spread with such weird speed. So many people trying to get on patriarchy's last lifeboats now that the ship has sunk.

(Don't get me wrong. Patriarchy still has all the power in the world. But it's lost what the Chinese used to call the Mandate of Heaven. It has power but it's no longer a Good Thing. Really, it's all over but the shouting. Be interesting to be able to live for enough centuries to see even the shouting die.)

Thanks for such a thought-provoking post, quixote. A strangely hopeful one too.

Ha! Having read on, I see I wasn’t the first to give quixote’s post the thumbs up.

The idea that you can "transition" to the opposite gender through genital surgery and hormone treatment seems like medical hubris from an earlier age. Should these treatments even be allowed? We've learnt over the post few decades how harmful large doses of sex hormones are, and this is exactly what hormonal transition requires (and it doesn't even make you into the opposite gender). And even the best surgery can't give you functional, or even believable, genitals of the opposite gender.

I bought the hard copy and just read the article this morning. I've been following the trans debate for a few years - online, thanks to this board - yet these stories have struck me. I didn't know things had gone so far: hysterectomies, implanted testes...Also the determined railroading of partly-formed adults into ops with major life changing consequences by doctors and psychologists (what happened to 'do no harm'?). I'm shocked to know this. I'll be waving my Sunday Times magazine in front on my whole family and anyone else who'll listen from now on.

I bought a copy of the Sunday Times especially for that article. Having seen the Tweets following the article, it astonishes me how so many of the TRAs have dismissed it as anti trans propaganda and lies without having read it at all.

Does anyone know whether the stats given for detransitioners are genuine? It's been quoted several times that the detransition rate is less than 1%.

@Soontobe60 I couldn’t agree more. I read a study years ago that found that it was very common for young women with anorexia to be “Daddy’s girls” who wanted to stop their bodies developing so that their fathers would still love them in the same way. This was true in my case. When I hit puberty my previously loving father suddenly started calling me a whore and a slut. I also started getting a lot of unwelcome attention from men on a daily basis which I absolutely hated (and still do). I actually said very often that I wished I was a boy. Instead I developed an eating disorder that pretty much destroyed my life. I think if I was a child now I might very well have transitioned for the same reason that I started starving myself - to not have to be a woman.

By affirming a young person’s gender identity crisis instead of trying to resolve their underlying issues, we are doing them a great disservice.

I can't imagine how anyone would count how many people have officially 'detransitioned' @xsquared - its probably a lot more than they think.
The replies to JKR are outrageous, just people telling her to shut up when all she did was quote an article in the times. She is so incredibly brave, she is just getting so much abuse!
This situation is as big as the thalidomide or lobotomy scandals in terms of long term medical consequences of procedures. Poor, poor women.

[quote HarryHarry]@Soontobe60 I couldn’t agree more. I read a study years ago that found that it was very common for young women with anorexia to be “Daddy’s girls” who wanted to stop their bodies developing so that their fathers would still love them in the same way. This was true in my case. When I hit puberty my previously loving father suddenly started calling me a whore and a slut. I also started getting a lot of unwelcome attention from men on a daily basis which I absolutely hated (and still do). I actually said very often that I wished I was a boy. Instead I developed an eating disorder that pretty much destroyed my life. I think if I was a child now I might very well have transitioned for the same reason that I started starving myself - to not have to be a woman.

By affirming a young person’s gender identity crisis instead of trying to resolve their underlying issues, we are doing them a great disservice.[/quote]
Some fathers have a lot to answer for.

Does anyone know whether the stats given for detransitioners are genuine? It's been quoted several times that the detransition rate is less than 1%.

I don't think anyone knows. Partly as i think some funding for research was blocked? (James Cantor?) and also they don't tend to tell their clinicians.

Also, they argue about what a "real" detrans person is. Thomasin clearly has found it traumatic, suffered grooming abuse, and damaged her ribs but didn't take any other medical steps. She's still definitely detransed and has sought and needed the same support to do so as others. Also GNC Ben. Both are vocal about the trauma and coercion involved in GNC's YouTube.

Is Someone who desists also detrans? It's important as then they claim that 90% of detrans, re trans again. We can't know those numbers for sure, as we don't know the detrans group number and the "re transing" would be mainly known as they go back into the system for medication etc.

I've read somewhere that 1% have reversing operations which means 1% is highly likely to be an underestimate.

@xsquared

Does anyone know whether the stats given for detransitioners are genuine? It's been quoted several times that the detransition rate is less than 1%.

This is based on a study which reviewed patient records at a Gender Identity Clinic for mention of detransitioning within their notes. Ignoring that the majority of patients do not have medium /long term follow up (in the way for example that cancer patients do) and that most people who have spoken out about 'detransitioning' have not being in contact with their Gender Identity doctors.