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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Johnny Depp. What if he loses the libel trial?

173 replies

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 09/07/2020 13:29

if he loses, as a domestic abuser, Will his canon of work be cancelled?

Will actors refuse to work with him? Will they condemn him?

Will the Pirates of the Caribbean ride be closed? (Actually there are a few Disney rides that are dodgy with a BLM lens, but that’s a different thread).

I’m willing to bet that nothing will be deleted and that he will continue to be offered work after a period of rehabilitation. Compare and contrast with the treatment JKR or any other woman who, for having a view about biology.

Anyone else care to make a prediction?

Obviously, this is entirely speculative and is not a commentary on the libel action or court proceedings

OP posts:
KOKOagainandagain · 10/07/2020 17:32

Isn't it the case that the Sun referred to him as a wife beater because there was a court granted order on the basis of DV? And now it is all being rehashed because he claims it should never have been made? Just because I have a restraining order on the basis of DV doesn't mean you can call me a wife beater because this makes me less employable?

NearlyGranny · 10/07/2020 17:35

Sounds like a case of rewriting history and attempting to control the language to me.

But we will still have to wait and see

KOKOagainandagain · 10/07/2020 17:40

The Sun didn't bring the case - I don't think they actually do have to prove that he is a wife beater - just that it is OK in a tabloid rag to use hyperbolic terms such as wife beater as a shorthand referral to someone with court ordered restraint based on accepted evidence of DV. The original court order may be 'wrong' but legally you can still refer to it using hyperbolic language without it being defamation.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/07/2020 18:10

With that as their legal stance it explains the equally hyperbolic way they have been reporting the case.

They have, as they have done before, simply gone 'all in'!

DidoLamenting · 10/07/2020 18:33

The Sun didn't bring the case
Correct. The action was instigated by him.

I don't think they actually do have to prove that he is a wife beater - just that it is OK in a tabloid rag to use hyperbolic

Not correct- they , despite being the defendant rather than the pursuer have to prove, on a balance of probabilities, that he is actually a wife- beater or, even if he isn't, that it was fair comment based on a reasonable belief that he is.

DidoLamenting · 10/07/2020 18:40

just that it is OK in a tabloid rag to use hyperbolic terms such as wife beater as a shorthand referral to someone with court ordered restraint based on accepted evidence of DV

As others have pointed out a restraining order does not = beating. The order could be given for destruction of property/ furniture/ smashing things/ shouting/ screaming/ threatening/ stalking/ refusing to go away.

For example Emily Maitliss has a restraining order against her stalker -who must have been an utter nightmare- but there's no suggestion whatsoever her stalker was physically violent

narrowboatgirl · 10/07/2020 19:35

BelleSausage I “care” because I’m a DV survivor and disabled, and public opinion has been against Amber and pro-man known to be violent who’s had serious DV rumours attached to multiple previous relationships going back decades. Because the majority online even on MN assumed she was a lying gold digger the minute she made the allegations, which happens to any woman who accuses a powerful or famous man. Because I think it’s sick that people are lying to create extra ammo when she literally admitted it.

Because I don’t believe her violence ameliorates his. Or that her violence makes him the victim.

Because I’m sickened at the amount of people online trying to smear and discredit a completely unrelated disabled woman simply because 8 years ago Depp inflicted violence on her, and her testimony destroys the “Gentle Soul” line.

Because he clearly isn’t a gentle soul and never has been.

Because I don’t believe it’s possible for a man with a huge decades-long history of violence and unstable behaviour who admits to biting people during “hillbilly rage episodes”, who was so off his face on drugs he painted on the walls in his own blood and asked to be stabbed, would have the self-control to avoid violence in an already very violent and tumultuous atmosphere.

AgnesNaismith · 10/07/2020 19:49

Flowers me too @narrowboatgirl and I hope you’re ok, I find the pro-man bullshit sickening.....especially from women. It must be so deeply entrenched in our socialisation to protect and allow men at all costs, even ourselves.

Fuck. That. Shit.

fatgirlslimmer · 10/07/2020 20:39

@DidoLamenting thanks for your clarification.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 11/07/2020 00:02

That's the real issue isn't it? It's not whether Depp is guilty, or if AH is just as bad. The trial is whether the sun had proof or a reasonable belief he was a wife beater.

The Sun had a restraining order, history of violence, history of drug and alcohol abuse, a victim complete with a statement, bruises and injuries.

Did the Sun have a reasonable belief that Depp had physically hurt his wife? Yes , I believe so no matter how shitty a tabloid they are. It's irrelevant really in a way what Amber did and why, unless Depp can actually prove that he has never,ever laid a hand on her. Which is fairly unlikely tbh.

hampstead1234 · 11/07/2020 08:34

I won't speculate on what might happen to future work if the action against The Sun is unsuccessful. Whatever result there is, my view of The Sun so-called newspaper will not change.

contactusdeletus · 11/07/2020 20:27

I've lived with more than one addict and while I don't believe Amber Heard to be a saint, I find it really hard to believe the story Depp is spinning. There's just no way he can be as innocent as he claims. It would make his reactions and behaviour unique among addicts.

It's impossible to deny at this stage that Depp was an alcoholic who habitually abused marijuana, cocaine and MDMA, often alongside the booze. Alcohol and cocaine seems to have been a favoured combination of his. This combination is known to increase depression and aggressive behaviour. Personally I've known people to start fights on it, to hit total strangers on it, and in more than one case, to hang themselves while on it. It's a dangerous combination that brings out the absolute worst in people.

The idea is that the coke will bring you "up" and counteract the depressive effect of the alcohol, but it often has the opposite result, hard wiring you into a heightened state of negative emotion. I suspect the MDMA was Depp's attempt to counter this, but MDMA burns through your serotonin stores in one short burst, leaving you depressed and "flat" for days or even weeks afterwards, as your body tries to rebuild those stores.

Then there's the marijuana, and I think we all know the side effect of too much marijuana. Just in case you don't: it's paranoia. Everyone is out to get you, everyone thinks the worst of you, everyone is lying to you.

So, a man addicted to and habitually abusing these substances is depressed, aggressive, and paranoid. It doesn't matter what he was like before. He really could have been a sweet, gentle soul who wouldn't hurt a fly. But then he began abusing mood-altering substances. And over time he lost his ability to feel happiness. He became angry and negative in his thinking. He came to see his wife as an enemy rather than a partner. He found it easy to believe she was cheating on him. He belittled her, tried to frighten her by smashing objects around her, and treated her roughly. At the very least. We know these things. We've seen evidence of them, lots of it from Depp's own mouth.

We know he chased his wife around the house like something out of the Shining, scrawling on the walls with the top of his own cut-off finger. This is not normal behaviour. It points to a man whose addiction is completely out of control. But now he's talking about this period in his life as if he had rock solid self control and the patience of a saint. Every time Amber behaved in a provocative or violent way, we're told, Johnny withdrew to a corner or went off and read a book. He never once retaliated and harmed her, not even when he was completely off his head on mood altering substances.

It's this poor little lamb act that makes me think he's guilty. He's an addict and they're not capable of reacting like that.

My father was an alcoholic. Just alcohol. He was a gentle man when sober, and never hit me. But if he was even moderately drunk, he would shout at me (right up in my face), "gesture" with knives and tools, smash my things, punch the walls, loom over me, drag me by the arm, push me roughly aside, call me stupid and a bitch, make fun of my mannerisms . . . you name it, he did it. And all of this was with me managing him as best I could. Agreeing with him or getting out of his way or being careful to show no reaction. If I had put it up to my dad in any way - if I'd screamed at him or hit him - I have no doubt whatsoever it would have ended with him lashing out at me. And my father was not a "bender" drunk. He was slow and steady, tipping away at a bottle for most of the day. Now picture Depp. He's my father, but with added drugs, and it's all hit his system at once, and someone is actually attacking him. He didn't take that meekly . There's just no fucking way.

You know what I bet he did do though? I bet he sobered up and refused to believe what people told him of his actions. I bet he tried to justify them. I bet he denied them, and accused anyone who didn't have proof of lying about it. I bet he gaslit everyone around him, until they started to record his actions. And then I bet he got angry, and accused them of setting him up and violating his privacy. Or provoking him. And if he couldn't defend his actions, I bet he broke down in tears. Insisting this isn't who he truly is. Remember how gentle he used to be? How kind? That's the real him, and it's cruel of anyone to claim his one mistake erases that. It's really vindictive. And anyway, if you really loved him, you wouldn't get up on your high horse and judge him. You'd forgive him and try to help him.

And then next time, when you haven't saved him from himself, he can leave off holding himself accountable for his actions and project all that blame onto you instead.

This is what addicts are like. It's how they think and behave. I've known too many of them, and they're all the same. They really are.

There's also the bonus, scary side effect of long term substance abuse, which is that their memory is affected. They can often swear something didn't happen and really mean it. They really don't remember. Even if it happened ten minutes ago. (This also causes them to repeat themselves, so you get trapped in the Never-Ending Argument. Living with an addict is a special kind of hell.)

My father did seek help eventually. He's been sober for years now, is completely non-violent, and takes accountability for all his past actions. But I think a lot of people would refuse to believe he was capable of the things he did back then. They wouldn't be able to picture it. He never even raises his voice anymore. But it's all true. I live with those two dads in my mind. The old one and the new.

I suppose my point is: don't underestimate addiction. It's a monster, and it can make a monster of anyone.

contactusdeletus · 11/07/2020 20:33

Forgot to say: cokeheads shit the bed all the time, by the way. Johnny's reaction of finding the stained bedsheets so odd and shocking he burst into laughter is another thing that doesn't ring true.

Laughing because he's had the idea of humiliating his wife by blaming it on her, however, would not surprise me. And would be right in line with his petty behaviour of the previous evening.

user135664323455 · 11/07/2020 20:36

@contactusdeletus very well put

user135664323455 · 11/07/2020 20:41

I do wish they would pause all the showmanship of these hearings long enough to explain the psychology and human elements behind all the stuff that people with no experience of the dynamics of addiction and abuse find implausible because they've never encountered it and don't understand it.

Bouledeneige · 11/07/2020 21:18

I think its a tough one to call. I'm a feminist and on the side of women who face DV every time.

But it is not clear cut and I don't think it ever will be. Initially I was very disappointed that he would be guilty of domestic violence and abuse, but then I became more uncertain when I learned more about her.

Amber Heard has a conviction for assault on her previous girlfriend - Sorry I can't found the link but she was found guilty. This only reports the arrest.
eu.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2016/06/07/amber-heard-arrested-2009-charge-hitting-girlfriend/85563338/

Her behaviour in previous depositions is odd for an abuse victim. Smirking and eating. To me there was something off about her behaviour and I wondered about her sincerity and trustworthiness. Put it this way, if I was on a jury and she was a witness I wouldn't find her credible. She seemed off hand and blase. Was she acting?
www.bing.com/videos/search?q=amber+Heard+eating+through+deposition&docid=608028259294513226&mid=D6509D5D9C2FAF0F7ACAD6509D5D9C2FAF0F7ACA&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Prior to the marriage she agreed to both a pre-nup and a post-nup but never signed either. He is a millionaire with an established Hollywood career.

In the end we have one word against another. Apparently he has no history of violence to his partner in previous relationships. Though he clearly smashed up rooms and was off his head.

However, any man who is so out of control with drug and alcohol abuse which is amply demonstrated in the evidence, is going to find it hard to swear about what he did or didn't do whilst under the influence.

It was clearly a very toxic relationship. I have been there when things are so messed up and I have seen extreme behaviour - though not violence. I have been in a relationship with a narcissist and I know how toxic and mental that is. It sends you crazy.

I have a nagging feeling that his supposition is correct. She love bombed him and married him for her career. To his security guards she referred to him as a fat old man. I think she was manipulative and abusive to him. And he smashed up rooms and ran away from her and her narcissistic behaviour. But because he was so fucked up with drugs and alcohol its hard to establish this. How can we really know?

I suspect he will lose the libel case. Because his insobriety means he cannot say for sure what he was doing or saying. But I do not believe she is a reliable witness either.

Who's career will suffer? Maybe both. Neither will have any dignity left after this. I think all the legal action is misjudged - it is humiliating for both of them. And in the end I cannot envy either of them. No one to tell you to get out and sort your shit out. Its very depressing.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 11/07/2020 21:26

Amber Heard has a conviction for assault on her previous girlfriend - Sorry I can't found the link but she was found guilty. This only reports the arrest.

The reason you can't find a link is because she was never convicted. She was arrested but shortly released without even being charged. Her ex girlfriend insists that Amber never laid a finger on her and insists that there was no abuse in their relationship.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 11/07/2020 21:29

@Bouledeneige

It even says in that article you linked to that no charges were brought against Amber and goes on to say this:

Van Ree, however, says Heard was "wrongfully" accused and the incident was blown out of proportion. In a statement issued by Heard's publicist Wednesday, van Ree said two cops "misinterpreted and over-sensationalized" the incident.

"I (recall) hints of misogynistic attitudes toward us which later appeared to be homophobic when they found out we were domestic partners and not just 'friends,' " the statement said. "It's disheartening that Amber's integrity and story are being questioned yet again. Amber is a brilliant, honest and beautiful woman and I have the utmost respect for her. We shared 5 wonderful years together and remain close to this day.”

Do people actually read the articles they link to? Confused

Bouledeneige · 11/07/2020 21:40

You're right - my apologies. She was not convicted. She was arrested in an airport after an altercation with her girlfriend where a police officer witnessed her hitting and grabbing her partner by her arm. There were other witnesses. But her girlfriend defended her and said she was not abusive, and accused the arresting officer - who was a lesbian herself - of homophobia. Yes no conviction. But an altercation in a public place that appeared to be abusive to others.

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=amber+heard+and+previous+girlfriend&&view=detail&mid=05336F81FF735D0708C305336F81FF735D0708C3&&FORM=VDRVSR

AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter · 11/07/2020 21:46

@contactusdeletus

SO well said. Ive worked on detox wards and this is spot on.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 11/07/2020 21:48

[quote Bouledeneige]You're right - my apologies. She was not convicted. She was arrested in an airport after an altercation with her girlfriend where a police officer witnessed her hitting and grabbing her partner by her arm. There were other witnesses. But her girlfriend defended her and said she was not abusive, and accused the arresting officer - who was a lesbian herself - of homophobia. Yes no conviction. But an altercation in a public place that appeared to be abusive to others.

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=amber+heard+and+previous+girlfriend&&view=detail&mid=05336F81FF735D0708C305336F81FF735D0708C3&&FORM=VDRVSR[/quote]
She didn't accuse the arresting officer of homophobia. She accused a male security guard of homophobia but AFAIK never mentioned a female officer.

Tbh I'm actually a bit baffled what the officers sexuality has to do with it. Plenty of gay people are homophobic just like how plenty of women are misogynistic. The officer being a lesbian is not some clever 'gotcha!' and the officers version of events doesn't match the one given by Amber's ex.

wildone84 · 11/07/2020 21:50

I think he comes out of this very badly even if he wins. I think it will impact his career at least in the short term.

wildone84 · 11/07/2020 21:52

I also wonder if he knows this will also impact on her career, airing their dirty laundry and he hopes to destroy that, too.

LittleEntrepeneur · 11/07/2020 21:53

I so want him to win. I’m not a fan of his and haven’t seen any of his films, but I believe him.

AH lost my sympathy when she posted pics of her facial injuries in which she had applied a FILTER to make the bruises look more purple.

Also, in some of the photographs of her injuries, she has a slight smile. Almost smug.

There is something not right about her. And I would never normally speculate about a DV situation.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 11/07/2020 21:56

AH lost my sympathy when she posted pics of her facial injuries in which she had applied a FILTER to make the bruises look more purple.

But you admit that she had a bruise though?

Also, in some of the photographs of her injuries, she has a slight smile. Almost smug.

Were those the ones where she was smiling at a party with friends? Because that smile actually looked quite forced to me and didn't match her eyes. Or were there other pictures that I missed?