Munroe Bergdorf

[ripples101]

I am trans.

I was a follower of Munroe Bergdorf’s Instagram.

Munroe wrote a post about JK Rowling, calling her a dangerous woman to the trans community. Munroe stayed something along the lines of

“JKR is a dangerous cisgendered, white woman who is causing harm”

I replied to this post, asking why Munroe felt it necessary to mention JK Rowing’s racial identity.

I wasn’t Abusive. I just felt that it wasn’t necessary, in regards to what Munroe was being critical of, to mention JK Rowling’s ethnicity.

Within minutes my post was deleted and I was blocked.

I am trans, and Munroe has silenced me.

So it seems nothing can be questioned. Any intent to ask a question, or to strike up debate, will be met with being silenced.

This is fast turning into propaganda. This is fast turning into thought crime. This is fast turning into silencing. This is fast turning into something it should never have been.

When a trans person isn’t even able to question another trans person, what chance do “people who belong to sex that menstruate”* have?

• Christ, I don’t even feel like I can use the word women here without being controversial.

I am so sorry for people to whom I thought I identified alongside (trans people) who are doing this to you. I feel sick and ashamed of what I am, because of people who are representing me.

I feel like I literally have no space left. And I can’t help but feel that a lot of biological woman are feeling the same way. And you have so much more to lose than I ever will, so I simply can’t imagine how this is making you all feel.

Yes, I see now that you realised your own mistake, Lemon

@Ereshkigalangcleg Thanks, I that. Obviously I don’t fit into their narrow definition of POC

Cellophane, Mr Cellophane should have been my name, Mr Cellophane cuz you can look right through me walk right by me and never know I'm there.
That and razzle dazzle em from Chacago are the two songs that come to my mind most often when reading MRA/TRAs on MN.

No, it seems not, Giningit and nor does Ginnyhip46 who agreed with the OP and JKR. And Belle.

@Giningit Mad isn't it? Some may even say that word that's being bandied about a lot right now beginning with a "R". Shhh I'll let you in on a secret in this new dystopian era we live in, if you don't say the correct things you're an inconvenience. Don't you know you're not meant to have your own opinion!

I feel like I've met hundreds of versions of Mr Che Shirt.

"White privilege is about a power dynamic and an unconscious oppression of non-white people."

So now we are all unconsciously oppressing non-whites? That's a new one.

Also, given how a lot of famous trans activists are white, can you explain how JKR being white does actually have anything to do with her comments on transgender issues? Like, explain it to me, and I will give you a cookie.

I feel like I've met hundreds of versions of Mr Che Shirt.

All of Twitter is Mr Che Shirt.

If you're a white woman he's probably talking to you about how empowering the sex industry is. Plus ca change, etc.

I am desperately trying to understand this thread. I am actually really confused.

1. Why are trans women annoyed that JK Rowling expresses concern about the transitioning of young people ie children, especially as NHS has changed their guidelines and the GIDS safeguarding lead is a whistleblower for incorrect procedures? And Newsnight highlights a number of issues at Tavistock? What does this have to do with adult trans women, who are happy in their decision?

2. Why is JK Rowling’s skin colour relevant to the argument (except to paint her as privileged on the sly)?

3. Why can’t a trans woman ask another trans woman what this has to do with the argument without being labelled “over sensitive” (see point 1)?

4. Why is the OP’s (a trans woman) views just brushed away by both trans woman and woman? No discussion, just brushed away?

5. Why do white people feel that they can tell POC what is racism and not? Are those people so incredibly clever that they need to explain structural racism so the less clever POC who have experienced it?

I need more wine. And chocolate. And did someone mention Madeira cake?

So now we are all unconsciously oppressing non-whites?

There is some actual truth to this - unconscious bias is a real thing - although the extent to which a cartoonish version of the American black/white racial dynamic has been superimposed over the complex realities of interracial relations in the UK by activists who live on the internet means that the way it's talked about online is entirely fucking useless and unhelpful 99.9% of the time.

Bergdorf's "Shut up white woman, you don't get to talk about women's rights" broadside is a prime example of all the useless and unhelpful and downright stupid "activist" dialogue about this topic. However there is a baby in amongst all that bathwater.

There is indeed an actual baby in there, it would just be great if people performing activism for dummies would stop trying to drown the poor thing.

If you're a white woman he's probably talking to you about how empowering the sex industry is. Plus ca change, etc.

That and calling you a "TERF".

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I’m glad you have no issue with MB’s statements on white people in her article. I have a couple:-

”..Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour...”

Tell that to the Irish; I am of Irish stock (both parents) and I can tell you that it would have been hard for the Irish to feel this privilege while they had their lands and language stripped from them. Or driven to starvation by their millions while being advised it was God’s will. Or of 800 years of being told they were ignorant, lazy and dirty.

Tell that to the white working class whose ancestors were in their own battle of survival.

MB is good at grabbing headlines with dramatic sweeping statements, to suggest they lack nuance is putting it lightly.

I do have to thank her for bringing my attention to the debate around identity politics as I was in complete ignorance. I have to thank her and other TRA’s for pointing me here to Mumsnet - you evil, (chokes on word) ‘biologically privileged’ women, who put forward reasonable and well argued points.

I have had my eyes opened and I am sharing the link to this discussion forum far and wide. Let in the light.

2) Why is JK Rowling’s skin colour relevant to the argument (except to paint her as privileged on the sly)?

I think you answered your own question.

[quote Giningit]@Ereshkigalangcleg Thanks, I that. Obviously I don’t fit into their narrow definition of POC[/quote]
It wasn't personal, I referred to "the 1 POC that spoke so powerfully" and you didn't fit into my definition of someone who spoke powerfully. Home2018 filled half a page and really tore into everyone and I found it very moving.

So, do you think OP should have been blocked my MB for their polite question?

you didn't fit into my definition of someone who spoke powerfully.

Male socialisation is a powerful tool.

As is this poster.

Quite breathtaking, isn't it.

I think you answered your own question

Well, that would be my take on it. But there seem to be so much discussion on this, so much defending MB for this and I am just genuinely trying to understand what other possible explanation there could be? As people are defending MB for bringing this into the argument if I am understanding this correctly?

Male socialisation is a powerful tool.

As is this poster

Don't flatter them, they're just a tool full stop.

I'm done.
There's a limit to how much verbal abuse I am willing to witness without getting myself banned.

[quote RandomGel]@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I’m glad you have no issue with MB’s statements on white people in her article. I have a couple:-

”..Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour...”

Tell that to the Irish; I am of Irish stock (both parents) and I can tell you that it would have been hard for the Irish to feel this privilege while they had their lands and language stripped from them. Or driven to starvation by their millions while being advised it was God’s will. Or of 800 years of being told they were ignorant, lazy and dirty.

Tell that to the white working class whose ancestors were in their own battle of survival.

MB is good at grabbing headlines with dramatic sweeping statements, to suggest they lack nuance is putting it lightly.

I do have to thank her for bringing my attention to the debate around identity politics as I was in complete ignorance. I have to thank her and other TRA’s for pointing me here to Mumsnet - you evil, (chokes on word) ‘biologically privileged’ women, who put forward reasonable and well argued points.

I have had my eyes opened and I am sharing the link to this discussion forum far and wide. Let in the light.[/quote]
Believe it or not, in the US, Irish and Italian immigrants weren't considered to be white until the Civil Rights era when the WASPs needed more numbers. Even then they were considered somewhat 2nd class.

Some Southern Italians were even subject to Jim Crow laws in some places.

Racism is some murky nonsensical shit.

As people are defending MB for bringing this into the argument if I am understanding this correctly?

They just want an excuse to shit on women. Most TRA nonsense starts making sense if you apply this lens.

Curtains wide open, light streaming in. It's just a shame that the OP's voice has once again been drowned out.

Male socialisation is a powerful tool.

I don't have "male socialisation", though - I agree with It wasn't personal and Home2018 filled half a page and really tore into everyone and I found it very moving

It's daft how we're expected to agree with everyone just because they're trans or POC - I agree with people because people and their points,, not because of who they are