Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

[Kelcat9494]

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras sex is a biological fact. Yes, it's chromosomes.

Erin Anderson who has also been known as Aaron in the past according to Lad Bible.

@KaptenKrusty

not sure why the fuck I still have a profile on this toxic site tbh! I like it on here but all the anti trans stuff is so weird - it's a real shame that this has taken over and it's pushing genuine users who want fucking parenting advice or support away!

Well? Why do you? I note that you have not managed to point to a single instance of “anti-trans” rhetoric or make a counter argument to any of the points raised by posters on this thread. You can always hide the Feminism boards if you find the spectacle of women discussing their rights or failing to be nice unedifying, btw.

I certainly don't hate transgender people. What I hate and will fight hard against is the blatantly male, misogynistic aggressive silencing and attempts to control biological women's freedom of speech and rights by a violent sector of the transgender mobvement. And I find it tragic - absolutely tragic that so many people are wokely, sheepishly falling in behind this horrific group.
If you read what JKR wrote, it is balanced, thoughtful, supportive, sane. The barrage of attacks against her include death threats, 'kill the bitch', 'silence the bitch' comments. The hatred from not towards the trans community reminds me of white hatred of black people in the Deep South. Unashamed, gleeful, bloodthirsty desire to silence others, squash them down.

I've yet to hear a transwoman say: 'Biological women, as a transwoman I am extremely interested in the historical silencing and violent oppression of women. I am deeply concerned that the transcommunity is perpetuating this. I recognise that biologically you have needs and challenges and differences that have been used against you, to ridicule, shame, belittle and oppress you. I refuse to play any part in the current version of this oppression coming from my own community. I will fight hard on your behalf for your rights to be heard, respected, acknowledged because as someone who identifies as a woman, I choose to be on your side not the side of your on-going oppressors."

The truth is, women have always been oppressed. Male-dominated societies will find ever more novel ways to remind women we deserve to be killed for having the gall to express opinions. The current 'die-bitch, shut the fuck up bitch' oppression by transwomen with penises towards biological women with wombs and breasts just makes us yawn. Been there before. Heard it before. Recognise the penis talking. Recognise the penis's outrage that its entitlement isn't being submissively and immediately fulfilled by women. Women with wombs.

Yes I think so "hearHooves", legally I think they would be able to apply to a job that was specifically just for females.

Of course as with any job just because you're entitled to apply, doesn't mean you're right for the job and clearly someone who looked like Buck would be unsuitable. If lots of passing trans men applied and were rejected then they might have a discrimination case but I think it's unlikely. But funnily enough trans men don't seem to be champing at the bit to make vulnerable women feel uncomfortable and threatened. Must be all that female socialisation they experienced.

I'm sorry if my response didn't seem compassionate, I wasn't dismissing her abuse but what I was trying to say was I don't understand how being abused should affect trans woman going in to the bathroom? (Obviously I know differently now but this was my original thought).

To be honest I struggle with your lack of understanding I wouldn't have thought it was that difficult. You have touted for sympathy and understanding of trans people and yet were unable to extend that to women who want to retain their sex based rights. Women should not have to justify or explain why they want to retain and have these rights strengthened and enforced, why should female victims of trauma, disabled females, religious females, elderly females, any females have to give reasons, no is a reasonable and, should be, perfectly acceptable response.

There are perfectly simple and straightforward solutions but TRA's don't want them, why would that be - misogyny, sexism and unabashed hatred of women is why.

"imagine ... being attacked and hated for who you are"

I’m a woman. I don’t need to imagine that, I live it. Anyone who doesn’t think that’s part of being a woman doesn’t understand what a woman is.

We don’t have age laws for marriage, sexual activity, smoking, drinking based on the age someone identifies with. We have them because protecting as many people as possible requires a clearly defined unarguable age. We split various sports, services, facilities by sex because doing this way protects the highest number of people. There are already very clear specific exceptions for those with a GRA. What is being demanded would take that high number of protected people and reduce it to a very small number of protected people.

I don’t understand why pointing this out is considered hate.

And so the people in the first two pictures would be legally able to apply for those jobs then. On what grounds would the service users be able to object?

And on that reasoning, females lose access to single sex services and females who cannot use mixed sex provisions, such as same sex hcps, are excluded.

Carefully lit photographs of celebrities who are unusually beautiful suggest that for the majority of trans people, no one would ever know they were trans. However someone like India Willoughby 'passes' (I hate that term but can't think of a better way to put it) in photographs. India, while still stunning, does not 'pass' on live action tv because of the way India moves, speaks, the proportions.

Is the patient, who can only access a needed intimate medical care procedure if a same sex person arrives, going to be allowed to be the judge of whether or not the person who arrives is to their subjective perception same sex? Which invites the question: should we be trying to play games like this, which are deceptive, on patients needing same sex, or should we respect that some females need female only and this is ok? And some females will be happy with a hcp of either sex and this is ok too?

Who is going to decide who 'passes' enough and how is this in any way reasonable or fair to TW? Daniella who's photograph is above for example, or Alex Thingumabob, TW who love their beards and masculine presentations as TW - if they arrive to do that intimate procedure how do you deal with that?

Likewise, how as a professional responsible for patient care, is it fair, reasonable, or even kind to walk in as someone male presenting with beard and say "I'm the same sex professional you wanted to do your intimate, highly anxiety provoking procedure"? Any professional doing this job is going to be more interested in their patient feeling safe, comfortable and getting the procedure done than their own needs being met by their patient: that's what a professional is.

Why can we just not respect that some females have these needs and those needs should be respected? Because the result of forcing this for 'equality' purposes, is to terrify, distress, possibly criminalise and exclude some females from accessing needed services. No one with a balanced view of intersectionality, equality and diversity is going to find this an acceptable outcome.

Kelcat

A few more things.

In this era of the growing popularity of menstrual cups, how do you recommend women deal with these in a unisex toilet with public basins. Even if they merely wipe out the cup, if they are very heavy like mine, there is blood on hands. Would you be happy to wash bloody hands in the public gaze? I most certainly would not.

Plus I have been known to have to rinse and use the hand driers to dry my skirt, even at work. I think it would simply mean that for two days every cycle (mine is 21 days and flooding regularly thanks to Peri menopause) I would experience the period leash.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I think you're making a common mistake here. In a still photo many transwomen pass, in real life, men walk differently, speak differently and stand differently, their bodies are most definitely male bodies, no matter what cosmetic changes they have made. Women can tell, sometimes at a glance who is male and who is female.
The biggest danger to Women is men, we're programmed to instantly correctly sex another human being. It's nature's way of protecting us.

Bluntly, trans women offend at the same rate and type as men.

Women are much more likely to be attacked by men than the reverse. To the point that from a class based analysis, it's not really up for consideration.

Indeed, in the UK, there is a rape or attempted rape, against a woman every 6 minutes (from rape crisis statistics). Not against a person, against a woman. It is important to note here that in England and Wales (not Scotland), to be convicted of rape, a penis must be used (unless convicted under joint enterprise, which is a minute number of rape cases). So these are crimes against women, by men

We segregate by sex to protect women from this.

As trans women offend in these same patterns (ONS), they should be segregated from women in the same way as men are, iin every situation a man would be.

And no by the way, transwomen are not at more risk of attack. This comes from misrepresented statistics, predominantly based around transwomen who are sex workers in South America. The women who are sex workers there also suffer murder and attacks at an astonishing rate. It's almost as if the issue is being used for sex by angry men, rather than being trans...

[quote Mascotte]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras sex is a biological fact. Yes, it's chromosomes.[/quote]
Which I understand so you would be fine with people in picture one and two being in the toilets with you, in the hospital ward with you, gym changing room or doing your smear if you'd requested a female nurse? I just can't understand that tbh.

Not all women menstruate or get pregnant. But all people who do menstruate and get pregnant are women.

Likewise, not all men are rapists, but all big rapey penises are definitely attached to men.

Women are asking for the law to be upheld so that safe spaces do exist as many TRAs are advocating for the right to legally identify as a women without a medical or surgical transition which means any man with an agenda could enter women's spaces.

If you've not noticed men, and men who dress as women don't really go around wearing badges that say "I am/not a rapist".

Buck Angel would fit in quite well here

Its ridiculous that it's so unusual to see female issues being centred, even by feminists, that its perceived as hate.

Cross post with Michelle there, she says it better than me.

Can you please explain why you frame not getting your own way as hate?

@Paradiseinportugal

Hearhoovesthinkzebras I think you're making a common mistake here. In a still photo many transwomen pass, in real life, men walk differently, speak differently and stand differently, their bodies are most definitely male bodies, no matter what cosmetic changes they have made. Women can tell, sometimes at a glance who is male and who is female. The biggest danger to Women is men, we're programmed to instantly correctly sex another human being. It's nature's way of protecting us.

Honestly, I can't think how I would ever see the people in picture one or two and think they were female or the person in picture three male. I can't see how you can write laws that need DNA analysis to identify people.

BTW although buck passes very well in photographs, when you see videos of him alongside biological men it's very obvious that he's trans. I personally met many trans men when I worked for a short period in adult gender identity services, and although they passed much better and much quicker than the trans women, things like their height, shoulder width, the size of their hands and feet, their gait, and just the general way they carried and presented themselves, made them noticeably distinct from biological men.

when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me

Perhaps you don't. Many men do.

Many men use "trans" as an entry card into women's spaces.

Many men have assaulted women and girls in these should-be-safe spaces.

If trans people feel unsafe in public toilets, then let them campaign for their own facilities - not force their way into women's

OP, I have similar views to yours, and was dismissed on a previous post. I have seen how difficult things are for trans people, and to be accepted by society

What do you think of the threats thrown at women such as , suck my girl dick, choke on my fat girl cock, you should be raped, you should be curb stomped, die in a grease fire, die bitch, hope your kids die of cancer and suffer. Or the most recent one ive seen, trans rights or fist fights.

Trans people in the uk have rights. Trans people in the uk are not murdered at high rates despite the lies. twitter.com/SlashQueer/status/1279405048628498432

Hearhooves, here again with the wide eyes and the uncomprehending brain. It must be difficult for you to live in this world. Do you spend your time eating soaps shaped like cupcakes? But how can you tell it's made of soap when it looks so delicious?

@SchadenfreudePersonified

when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me

Perhaps you don't. Many men do.

Many men use "trans" as an entry card into women's spaces.

Many men have assaulted women and girls in these should-be-safe spaces.

If trans people feel unsafe in public toilets, then let them campaign for their own facilities - not force their way into women's

That's a very good point thank you, I hadn't thought of it that way.

OP.

Do you have a suggestion on how to navigate sex based discrimination in employment? I brought up a couple of examples up thread. It would be interesting to know your point of view?

Or do you think this is only about loos?