Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

[Kelcat9494]

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

[quote EdgeOfACoin]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

So because some trans people pass, women should not have the right to request an HCP who is the same sex as them?

That doesn't make sense to me...[/quote]
No I'm not saying that. I'm just genuinely confused when people on here argue that it's basically your genetic make up that is important and nothing else.

So, a trans woman who passed is still considered male on here by many. If people ask for a female nurse they would not want a trans woman whether they passed or not. So, how do you write the regulations? A trans man is genetically female so the first two pictures should be welcomed, unchallenged, into women's toilets, prisons etc. Does that make any sense?

Just wanted to say that I’m liking the new ‘See All OP’s posts’ facility. On threads like this (I’ve come to this one 7 pages in) it’s great to be able to see how the OP has responded to all the posters before you launch in yourself. It makes it easy to identify those that are here to just stir and those who are potentially listening and may go on and put the work in to reach a greater understanding. Looks like this OP is the latter and I welcome that.

I think it’s important to remember that, particularly with younger posters, the debate has been simplified for many into ‘I don’t care who pees where - can’t we all just get along and stop being horrid to all the lovely, vulnerable trans people’. That’s the depth of the level of engagement some people evidently have with this issue.

This is a great place to come and explore the fact that there’s FAR, FAR more to it than that.

@RedDogsBeg

Kelcat9494 You got my back up with your provocative and totally incorrect thread title, you can provide no evidence of this it is a pathetic trope to throw out solely designed to dismiss and shame the posters who frequent this board. However, as you have apologised and admitted you have not read or understood the threads on here I will leave it there but perhaps in future you could take the time to, as the TRA's say, educate yourself on what is actually being said before insulting and demonising a group of people.

On the subject of toilets, you say:

I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia.

You don't sound sorry at all, you are dismissing the trauma that poster has suffered and saying that the trans person and their perceived risk is more important and more worthy, how is that being kind, in your words, to the female who suffered abuse and where does that leave her? Unable to access toilets or changing rooms and you don't care, that is why another poster called you out on your privilege - it doesn't affect you and you give no thought or consideration to those it does, your concern is for TW only.

You say the fault is with the abuser alone, dismissing again the effect this abuse has had on the victim, and state that it isn't trans peoples fault. It's not the fault of the male members of my family either, they would never and have never abused anyone so by your logic they too should be allowed to access female toilets and changing rooms, after all we don't check genitalia do we?

As to the assertion that a trans person is more at risk in a toilet please provide evidence for this, surely you have some?

Whilst you are thinking about risks perhaps you would think about the two young girls, one aged 10 and the other 12, who were attacked and assaulted in the female toilets of a supermarket by a transwoman, would you like to tell them to their faces that trans people are more at risk?

I'm sorry if my response didn't seem compassionate, I wasn't dismissing her abuse but what I was trying to say was I don't understand how being abused should affect trans woman going in to the bathroom? (Obviously I know differently now but this was my original thought).

No body "hates" trans people on here. Equating "it's important non-penis-havers feel safe because the system is utterly open to abuse" is not hate.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

If you wanted a female to conduct an intimate exam you would not think that either of those were female would you?

which probably rules out careers of that type for those individuals. choices have consequences innit?

How can it though? That's discrimination based on a protected characteristic which is illegal. Also, what toilet should they use? If they were admitted to hospital which ward? If they go into prison, which one?

Is it purely chromosomes that people want these decisions based on, because that appears to be the argument when it comes to trans women?

I don't hate all trans people.

However I do hate males who decide they are trans who:

stay in a relationship with a woman
say they will not have surgery until after they have children
go back on their word and plan to have the surgery, removing the chance for their wife to have children
decide not to to go ahead with the transition to woman "because it is too much hassle" - so proving that they are not a genuine trans person as if there were then what choice would they have?

No one here has a problem with trans people. What we have a problem with is scenarios like:

1. Trans women - please don't refer to us as trans women as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - oh yes, of course, really sorry.

Natal women - please don't refer to us as cis women or menstruaters as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU TERF PIECE OF SHITS.

2. Male bodied athletes who consistently lose at a male catergory sport declaring themselves as female and consistently winning as they are biologically stronger and faster.

3. Male bodied people who are convicted of sex crimes declaring they identify as women and being housed in female prisons.

4. Male bodied teenagers being able to self identify their way into female rooms on school trips.

5. Reducing natal women and their struggles down to nothing more than a "feeling".

6. Giving children incredibly damaging drugs to halt puberty.

These things and many more are what we have a problem with....

I suppose that's one of the consequences of the moderation and deletion policy on this part of MN, OP.

You see the deletions and fill in the gaps with anything and everything.

It was a genuine question btw.

Kelcat, what do you suggest we should do about facilities for women and girls (female ones) who cannot use mixed facilities, and cannot pretend to themselves that male people in there are female?

If your answer is 'They should pretend harder', that doesn't sound to me like being kind.

Case in point (now no longer an issue because Covid cancelled it all, but...): My daughter's school has a recently declared transgirl. In other words, a teenage boy that the pupils have grown up with, and know full well to be male, even if the height and baritone voice weren't a hint.

On the school trip abroad, where should the staff choose to place this teenager? Male dorms, or female? Can they actually even discuss it without being called transphobic?

I know there is also a girl in that year and friendship group who was raped. She needs single sex facilities to have any confidence in school life. If she knows there is at least one boy (however nice) using the girls' facilities, she is left with nowhere to go. Her trauma doesn't handily vanish, you know.

@FantaOra

There you go, OP has become a TERF by page 6 and doesn't want to give away women's rights.

Welcome to FWR!!!

All you need to sunlight.

State the facts. This journey only ever goes one way.

The hard, relentless campaigning of #NoDebate by transactivists had lead some people, like the OP, down an erroneous cul-de-sac.

No one who thinks women are human would agree to rapists in female prisons, men in women's sport, not being able to choose a woman to give you a smear test, etc.

Toilets are a bit of a red herring.

Personally, I think all the 'choke on my dick and die you bitch' responses to women maintaining their current rights should be enough of an answer to the toilet issue.

It is actually legal to discriminate on the basis of sex for certain positions OP. Something like a support worker in a female rape crisis centre, or a nurse performing a smear test. You would be perfectly legally within your rights to say "this is a female only job. Men, including transwomen, are excluded from applying for this position". You'd probably phrase it a bit more tactfully, but that's what the equality act says (and the GRA as well I think).

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I do not want a man in my safe women's spaces. It's got nothing to do with "passing". It's a simple case of sex.

[quote Mascotte]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I do not want a man in my safe women's spaces. It's got nothing to do with "passing". It's a simple case of sex.[/quote]
I understand that. My question is basically how do you define "man"?

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

It is actually legal to discriminate on the basis of sex for certain positions OP. Something like a support worker in a female rape crisis centre, or a nurse performing a smear test. You would be perfectly legally within your rights to say "this is a female only job. Men, including transwomen, are excluded from applying for this position". You'd probably phrase it a bit more tactfully, but that's what the equality act says (and the GRA as well I think).

And so the people in the first two pictures would be legally able to apply for those jobs then. On what grounds would the service users be able to object?

You don't make laws for individual people you make them for a society.

Individual choices have consequences. If your choices mean you are barred from a profession then that is something you accept as a consequence of your choices.

I don't have to consider the one transman who wants to continue to be a midwife when I say all women have the right to a same sex HCP. The choice to change your appearance does not override the choice in law.

I'm not sure that can be said any more plainly. There will always be conflict when 2 equal rights come into direct conflict. The only reasonable response is to go with what I does less harm.

And a woman giving birth without additional stress is less harm than a transmidwife of either sex or gender being asked not to be that woman's HCP.

You are very, very fortunate op that you do not and have never experienced rape, absue, male violence, ptsd, or similar. Slow clap for you. Maybe then you would understand the innate drive to feel safe within a system that does not care about you, does not care about your safety or desire for safety, and would rather put the feelings of another group first than women who have been through serious, horrific trauma. You can't even begin to understand what it's like and to be honest I'm glad for you in a way you do not understand. Because it means you've never experienced it. I hope you never do. But why should another group be prioritised over a year I am incapable of controlling? Why should I be told to accommodate over people? Seriously, what the fuck? What the actual fuck? Let them have their own spaces. But the system as a whole is open to absolute abuse, as the research the Target stores in America proved with unisex spaces, let alone women and girls who deserve to feel safe when they've been through trauma.

Yes hooves, we divide society purely based on chromosomes because of the strong evidence linking certain behaviours to those chromosomes

OP, I type really slowly and I see you posted again while I was thinking. I think you can see some of the issues now.

Hearhooves, I always read what you say with interest, but in the case of our schoolchildren it isn't very difficult to know the sex of the child concerned. They are the same sex they were last year, and all the other kids know that.

Thank you for your opinion. I shall place it in my lessons on how to dismiss women’s rights box for reading later

Me too .

OP who are the people in those photos you have posted?

imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are

Ahahahahahahaha......ooh that's a notnew one

No, I would never understand what that feels like. Maybe you can explain to me oh wise one.

Turn your argument round then. Say this was just about bog standard men and women.

Men crying "whhhyyyy won't my online date get in a car with me, I'm not a serial killer, I'M a nice guy. Why does she keep an eye on her drink, that offends me, I'm not going to date rape her. Why does she have to text her friend to let her know she's ok? That's so offensive. Whyyy does she want to meet in a crowded space only for coffee in the middle of the day, it's so unfair."

Because women judge risk constantly. And men (even nice guys) who take her wanting to keep on high alert just in case as a personal affront rather than caring about her feelings and respecting them, are arseholes.

The problem isn't trans people. It's arsehole men. If you meet a stranger online, there's a chance he's a rapist or anything. But (decent) men don't get all offended because women take precautions on their dates.

It's these arsehole men that will use being able to use women's spaces at will to their full advantage.

If you said you didn't want to walk down those dark alleys to get home after a night out because you might get attacked or mugged or worse, there might be drug addicts or people with mental health problems down there and it wouldn't be safe! You would get told you're sensible, not have the homeless people getting offended about it.

We judge risk and have spaces that are safe. And they're being taken from us.

As a heterosexual man, I have a few observations: -

1. Anyone with any empathy should be able to see that women are the most likely people to be assaulted with a penis and should therefore be able to access penis-free environments.
2. It is beyond disappointing that such a large number of those identifying as women are not prepared to compromise their own freedoms or opportunities to protect the interests of more vulnerable women.
3. There seems to be a particularly unpleasant tendency from the airbrushed and photoshopped 'thought-leaders' in society that a lack of drive toward continuous self-transformation is a sign of morally repugnant laziness.
4. Dismissive terms such as Cis-gender and TERF seem to imply that one born female, suffering the chance of period-shaming and other forms of abuse peculiar to pubescent females has had a life presented on a plate that is inferior to a gender identity chosen and fought for later in life.

I don't know of anyone who wishes to reverse the freedoms of transgender people to choose their identity, have it recognised on official paperwork, bank statements and have their loving partnerships recognised and respected. But those freedoms must bring with them responsibilities not to make the lives of those who are so often last in line for opportunities any worse.

No one here has a problem with trans people. What we have a problem with is scenarios like:

1) Trans women - please don't refer to us as trans women as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - oh yes, of course, really sorry.

Natal women - please don't refer to us as cis women or menstruaters as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU TERF PIECE OF SHITS.

2) Male bodied athletes who consistently lose at a male catergory sport declaring themselves as female and consistently winning as they are biologically stronger and faster.

3) Male bodied people who are convicted of sex crimes declaring they identify as women and being housed in female prisons

4) Male bodied teenagers being able to self identify their way into female rooms on school trips.

5) Reducing natal women and their struggles down to nothing more than a "feeling".

6) Giving children incredibly damaging drugs to halt puberty.

These things and many more are what we have a problem with.

^^This. No hate for transpeople on this site - this is a media-perpetratored myth that no one actually bothers to think might be false. But all the above. When the fuck was the pursuit of fairness or safety "hating"?

@YouJustDoYou

You are very, very fortunate op that you do not and have never experienced rape, absue, male violence, ptsd, or similar. Slow clap for you. Maybe then you would understand the innate drive to feel safe within a system that does not care about you, does not care about your safety or desire for safety, and would rather put the feelings of another group first than women who have been through serious, horrific trauma. You can't even begin to understand what it's like and to be honest I'm glad for you in a way you do not understand. Because it means you've never experienced it. I hope you never do. But why should another group be prioritised over a year I am incapable of controlling? Why should I be told to accommodate over people? Seriously, what the fuck? What the actual fuck? Let them have their own spaces. But the system as a whole is open to absolute abuse, as the research the Target stores in America proved with unisex spaces, let alone women and girls who deserve to feel safe when they've been through trauma.

Wow excuse me? You know nothing about me and to say I haven't experienced those things because I don't have a problem with trans women who genuinely just want to use the toilet without doing anything unacceptable isn't exactly fair. Obviously after reading some of the very helpful posts I know it's not always the case.

EVERYTHING @Sparklfairy said. All of it. Please please read what she's written.