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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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Giningit · 05/07/2020 13:43

@LunchBoxPolice

The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone)

Why bother separating toilets into male and female at all then? Let men into women’s toilets, since it’s the individual abusers fault and women shouldn’t worry.

Or is it just trans women who need to feel safe?

This!!
Durgasarrow · 05/07/2020 13:44

Welcome to Mumsnet. Please feel free to read the threads available to you here to educate yourself. You will find the answers to all the questions you posed.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 05/07/2020 13:44

@growinggreyer

Hearhooves, here again with the wide eyes and the uncomprehending brain. It must be difficult for you to live in this world. Do you spend your time eating soaps shaped like cupcakes? But how can you tell it's made of soap when it looks so delicious?
It's not wide eyed anything. I don't understand how you can want laws that require genetic analysis to implement yet your only response is to insult people.

Ok.

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 13:44

Okay, i understand my post was very naive. I was thinking of the very rosy view that all trans people are just people wanting to live as the opposite sex and I couldn't understand the issue with that but I've read through all your posts and I know now there's much more pressing issues and the threats to us as women. I now see how ignorant my post was and I'm very sorry, I'm glad I posted it though as it's really opened my eyes and of course I want to be an ally to my fellow woman and make sure none of us have to be uncomfortable. I'm sorry I wasn't compassionate to the sex survivor in my post, it wasn't intentional it's just I couldn't really understand why that had an impact on trans people using the bathroom
as they should but I know differently now and everyone deserves access to a safe space.

OP posts:
Sparklfairy · 05/07/2020 13:44

If trans people feel unsafe in public toilets, then let them campaign for their own facilities - not force their way into women's

This is the point. Trans people trying to get away from men and male violence by using our spaces because there's no men in there is a very valid reason... However, those same men can now follow you into our spaces so you're not safe anyway.

I don't know the solution. But aiming the bile I've seen at women, rather than the dickhead violent men that are ACTUALLY causing the problem, is very typical of the misogyny of society.

Durgasarrow · 05/07/2020 13:45

P.S. Nobody hates trans people here.

FantaOra · 05/07/2020 13:45

images.app.goo.gl/Zty8thQ6QBtufLqx7

Which of the two people centre right are male and female. Not so tricky to see without a carefully posed and cropped shot.

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 13:47

@Winesalot

OP.

Do you have a suggestion on how to navigate sex based discrimination in employment? I brought up a couple of examples up thread. It would be interesting to know your point of view?

Or do you think this is only about loos?

Hi, as I've mentioned in quite a few update posts there was obviously very pressing issues I didn't know or think about and I'm trying to educate myself on them now.
OP posts:
Sootybear · 05/07/2020 13:49

I'm not sure if the link works, but I've just read this,
drive.google.com/file/d/1py9MZpSTBYIEnxZOT3RlSbs7yLa6e6Tr/view?usp=drivesdk
Basically it's about the negative impact of transgender ideology on women and children. It's worth a read, and some very interesting points are made. It's written by Joanna Williams and was published very recently. There is no hate in it, just a recognition that the ideology is very damaging to women and children.

Winesalot · 05/07/2020 13:50

OP

Did you read JKR’s tweets about people who menstruate?

What do you think about the acceptance of dehumanizing language to talk about women and their biological processes and body ?

And why do you think it doesn’t get pushed with men’s biological processe and body? I have not yet seen them called ejaculators or prostate havers. In fact I have seen an anal sex guide in Teen Vogue that called girls non prostrate havers.... what do you think? Is this appropriate? Is this inclusive to girls and women?

merrymouse · 05/07/2020 13:50

Yes I think so "hearHooves", legally I think they would be able to apply to a job that was specifically just for females.

Under current law, not if they had a GRC, because legally they would be males. The law allows discrimination on the basis of legal sex, and in some cases also biological sex. It's not either/or.

Admittedly that leaves out transmen who present like Buck Angel but don't have a GRC, but as far as I know they aren't applying to do female only jobs in significant numbers, if at all.

Wondersense · 05/07/2020 13:50

Thank you for engaging with us.

No, you are right. It's not trans people's fault that certain women have been abused by men. It's not gay men's fault either, nor is it my straight male partner's fault and it's not the fault of any individual man..........but neither is it women's fault. It's not women's fault that trans women are under threat of male violence, and we should not have to sacrifice our single sex spaces because of it.

Your argument of 'but that's not trans people's fault' is a very, very weak one. In the U.K, and I'm sure in many countries across the world, you have to go through a special security check before you are approved to work with children or certain types of vulnerable people. Some people might have to pay for this before they even apply for the job, which they might feel are unjust or they might find it intrusive. Under your argument, it would be ok for me to go to the future employer and say 'But that's not fair!!!! It's not MY fault that there are abusers out there'.

Well no, it's not my fault, but the employer would have a right to tell me that they know it's not my fault, but that does not negate the need for safeguarding for a group of vulnerable individuals. It's a difficult ethical area, but unfortunately these things are needed.

These things are in place for safe guarding. No matter what your ideological stance is. It is simply not ethical nor automatically 'right' to expose around 50% of the population to such risks to ensure the safety of a tiny minority by allowing easier access to the spaces meant to make them safer. It doesn't mean we shouldn't care about trans people - but the erosion of women's spaces like this simply isn't right, particularly if it involves spaces where girls are.

You say that when you're in the toilet you are not aware of the genitals sitting next to you. Well, most women aren't either, because most of the time in the past this has never been an issue. They know those spaces have been a place for women only. Now that is not going to be the case in unisex toilets.

The trouble with all of this is that much of it is solely based on what someone says about themsleves and about their identity, as if that should be taken as gospel. But the thing is, there are many occasions where we rightly cannot rely on what someone says about themselves.

How can we make sure that males are kept out of certain spaces if all it takes is for them to say 'yep, I'm a woman'. Please answer me that. When this question is put to any activist, they do a very poor job of avoiding the issue. They try to downplay concerns about it by saying 'Do you REALLY think a man would do that just to access certain spaces?', which is quite unbelievable because YES they will do, and have done exactly that! Abusers will do anything to access their 'prey', even if it means spending years training in a career that will put them in a position of trust. If a teenage boy says he's a girl and wants to use female changing rooms with the girls, how on earth could you tell if he's just doing that for a laugh? Please do say that changing rooms are cubicles because in the U.K, in my school and in the local leisure centre, they weren't. It was all open.

I would recommend that you read up on -

Statistics relating to male violence
The history of why women's spaces, including toilets came to be in the first place
The sexual violence patterns around toilet areas in third world countries and war zones where women often don't have their own toilets
Voyeurism and the increasing problem of cameras in toilets
Read J K Rowling's full essay, not just her tweets

Datun · 05/07/2020 13:51

@Kelcat9494

You're now going to get people posting who haven't read the full thread.

So you will be held to account for your opening post, despite the fact that you have said you now see what the problems might be.

Don't take it personally.

At least once a week, we get pretend posts, not genuine ones like yours, along similar wide-eyed innocent lines.

Again, it's not personal.

Michelleoftheresistance · 05/07/2020 13:53

I'm very sorry,

Oh goodness please don't be, and please don't 'educate' yourself or do any of the hair shirt abasement here, no one expects it and you have done nothing wrong in asking questions or stating a point of view.

Civil debate welcomed here, you've engaged in it. It's interesting that you're saying your perspective may have widened as a result.

Murraygoldberg · 05/07/2020 13:54

In my mind it boils down to agreeing or disagreeing with the TWAW ( or TMAM) narrative. I strongly disagree with it and believe that a TW is a TW, I believe there should be no discrimination for trans people BUT they should not be taking women's spaces and should campaign for their own if they want

Jaxhog · 05/07/2020 13:54

not every trans person can "pass" but the ones I personally know can so maybe that's where my naivete has come from

Hmm, I know several transwomen and nice people as they are, not one would pass for a woman. Since most transwomen are still physically entirely male, that shouldn't really be a surprise.

12boo · 05/07/2020 13:55

[quote Datun]@Kelcat9494

You're now going to get people posting who haven't read the full thread.

So you will be held to account for your opening post, despite the fact that you have said you now see what the problems might be.

Don't take it personally.

At least once a week, we get pretend posts, not genuine ones like yours, along similar wide-eyed innocent lines.

Again, it's not personal.[/quote]
Fair point
But still, where was the "hate"?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/07/2020 13:55

Which I understand so you would be fine with people in picture one and two being in the toilets with you, in the hospital ward with you, gym changing room or doing your smear if you'd requested a female nurse? I just can't understand that tbh.

Oh stop it! If they 'passed' there would still have been a deception which, in some not all, settings would be unconscionable!

And you are still harping on about individuals. Law is, as I am becoming sick of typing, not for individuals!

Can it be any plainer than: When 2 sets of equal rights come into conflict the solution is "Do least harm".

And let society, over time, make its own unwritten laws about what the acceptable compromise is. Just as we did over the last few decades when transwomen have been using female facilities because and only because women allowed it. Not because they passed but because women felt it was important to be nice.

That is how most societies work. Laws get passed when a society needs a framework, a directive. They don't get passed for the fucking obvious. And until recent gender woo and bilogical obfuscation, male and female as the 2 sexes has been fucking obvious.

Nousernameforme · 05/07/2020 13:55

@Kelcat9494 Why did you think it was hate?

Wondersense · 05/07/2020 13:55

I've just read your last post @Kelcat9494 - argh!! Seems like there might not have been a need for me to write what I did, but oh well!

SonjaMorgan · 05/07/2020 13:55

No hate from me but I do feel frustrated when genuine debates are shut down and the term transphobic is misused. Many of us have concerns about the impact changes in legislation will have on women's rights. Transgender rights cannot be given priority over women's rights.

Winesalot · 05/07/2020 13:56

as I've mentioned in quite a few update posts there was obviously very pressing issues I didn't know or think about and I'm trying to educate myself on them now.

Ok. I was actually interested in knowing your thoughts. I have yet to have this question answered.

Yes, when it starts to sink in that this is such a very broad topic that you realise just why there is so many threads about it here. And now it impacts women’s ability to even speak about it honestly.

It impacts everything. Everything.

And few people once they see it can ever unsee it unless they have an ulterior agenda.

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 13:57

@Wondersense

I've just read your last post *@Kelcat9494* - argh!! Seems like there might not have been a need for me to write what I did, but oh well!
I'm glad you did, thank you. I've never really thought about it that way, I'm quite innocent in the sense of hoping people have good intentions but sadly not very nice people pry on that and that's how people get hurt.
OP posts:
Toomie · 05/07/2020 14:01

It is really refreshing to witness the OP being willing to engage and listen and learn. It is quite unusual, Kelcat9494, for someone to start as you did, then stay and engage once it becomes clear they know far, far less about all of this than the majority of other posters. You seem like a thoughtful, compassionate person, it can't be easy to hear your initial perspective being forcefully rejected. It shows strength of character for you to stay and not flounce.

It would be fantastic if you posted again once you have had the chance to read around and think more about this.
It would be really helpful and interesting to hear if your views have changed as a result of engaging here. It helps people like me learn to engage and argue better. What are the tipping points? Will the feminist board prove to be the radicalisation portal for you as it was for many of us?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/07/2020 14:01

there was obviously very pressing issues I didn't know or think about and I'm trying to educate myself on them now. Don't even begin to apologise. Many of us were precisely where you are in your thinking not so long ago. I was, until about 3 years ago.

Yes, you'll get a swift and sharp rebuttal but because you have stayed and processed what has been said in response you will find many of the truly informed posters here will take time to signpost a lot of information you might find very hepful. I know I found it overwhelming and took quite while to work my way through it all.

Stay. Keep on talking, asking and listening. You'll find your own balance.