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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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Odense · 05/07/2020 12:58

Buck Angel is pretty hot though. In a ‘who’s your surprising crush‘ kinda way.

SerenityNowwwww · 05/07/2020 12:59

See Scott Newgent for interesting tweets. Pulls no punches.

Bluebooby · 05/07/2020 13:01

Female only spaces are more than just toilets, though given there are men who install spy cameras, and men who rummage through bins for used sanitary wear, I very much want female only toilets. But there are also prisons, refuges, mental health units and hospital wards, personal care for the elderly and vulnerable, where safety and dignity may be much more of an issue. As well as sports, where it is just plain unfair for women and girls who train long and hard to be forced to compete against bodies with a male advantage.

I've not had my period at several times in my life. When I was younger before they had started, when I was on contraception and they stopped, when I had an eating disorder and my weight dropped too low which happened several times in my 20s and again in 30s, and then when I was pregnant. Not once of those times did I feel any offence at either being called a women or hearing that only women have periods, nor did I feel my status as woman was under any threat. Women who have their uteruses removed have never designed a mass outrage campaign towards anything that describes women as having a uterus.

I didn't plan to have dc and wasn't even sure I would be able to get pregnant (though I did in the end), and never felt the need to jump into conversations about how only women can carry babies and breastfeed, and tell them they were excluding me, because I knew they weren't. Nobody cared before. We all knew that saying only X can do Y is not the same as saying all X do Y or X = Y.

Reducing women to body parts and functions is dehumanising, and we get told that's what we are doing, when we are not. We are saying women are adult human females who can do, wear and be as they please but our biological reality is still a reality. They are the ones literally calling us menstruaters and uterus-havers.

Cis - this label has been forced on us. Recently there has been a switch to describe this as meaning "not trans". Initially we were told it meant "a person whose biological sex and gender identity align". That didn't work as so many of us said we did not have a gender identity, so they're now trying to get around that by saying "oh it's just another way of saying 'not -trans'". It's not, but they are set on making us as a subset of our own sex, often using racist arguments to do so. We aren't allowed to use the word "woman". The dictionary definition of the word used to describe our biological reality has been called hate speech.

We are told that "genital preferences" are transphobic, and they're not even subtle at directing this mostly towards lesbians and trying to shame them into accepting men into their bedrooms, which is pure rape language.

Children are being taught that if they don't match up to a narrow set of stereotypes, they may be trans and they can be "fixed" with life long drugs and surgery causing irreversible changes to their body. Autistic, homosexual and traumatised children are especially vulnerable to this.

Meanwhile, people who more commonly would have described themselves as transsexual and many of whom accept their biological sex for what it is, and some of whom geuininely do just want to get on with their lives and want children to be left alone, are being demonised by the groups that claim to represent them and told they're self hating and transphobic, despite being trans.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 05/07/2020 13:01

If you wanted a female to conduct an intimate exam you would not think that either of those were female would you?

which probably rules out careers of that type for those individuals. choices have consequences innit?

EdgeOfACoin · 05/07/2020 13:02

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

So because some trans people pass, women should not have the right to request an HCP who is the same sex as them?

That doesn't make sense to me...

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 05/07/2020 13:02

It's long but do think hard about wellbehavedwomens's post earlier in the thread.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 05/07/2020 13:03

@ShadowMane

It's people like my ex I have an issue with considering he told me "the best thing about the GRA is that you'll have no where I cant access".

So your ex wouldn't go in to a toilet marked female to get to you if he really wanted to? Anyone who wants to get to someone will get to to them

Ah, so because someone is determined to get to a certain woman, he would enter the female toilets if he really wanted to? That makes it all open season for all women and girls does it? So men are going to do it anyway so we should just give them unfettered access to our spaces? Get. To. Fuck.
ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 05/07/2020 13:03

Question for you OP. If you saw a young girl go alone into a female only toilet, followed by the person from the attached photo, what would you do?

If your answer was anything other than "mind my own business and say or do nothing" then congratulations, you're now guilty of a hate crime.

Do you think that if this became the social norm it would put women and girls in more or less danger from men?

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.
lionheart · 05/07/2020 13:04

OP: How did you manage to get far enough into this site to see what you describe as 'the hate trans people get on here' but not the arguments made about all of the issues involved?

Chicchicchicchiclana · 05/07/2020 13:04

I don't hate trans people at all, far from it.

I hate the violence and abuse dished out in spades by a large number of TRAs to women who want to save women's sport and women's hard-won sex based rights.

I hate the blanking and shutting down of people who believe that women are adult human females. As I understand it there are many trans people who don't disagree with this fact.

It's the bigoted, dogmatic, violent, hate-fuelled, misogynistic ones that I have a problem with.

ivykaty44 · 05/07/2020 13:04

Trans rights are needed, but they cannot be allowed to trample over hard won female rights.

this ^

and by trampling over those rights you'll make plenty of enemies, instead of joining forces and being stronger

Apileofballyhoo · 05/07/2020 13:05

I don't have any hatred towards transpeople whatsoever. I just don't believe that a transwoman is the same as a woman.

I think if transwoman are women is believed it leads to a situation where it becomes difficult to discuss and support issues that effect women and girls. Statistics that governments rely on for planning and budgeting will change. An increasing amount of women will suffer from prostate cancer. Less women will suffer from endometriosis. Less women will suffer from ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, osteoporosis, anaemia, breast cancer, prolapse of the womb, uterine cancer. It will be said these issues only affect x% of women instead of the true figure.

An increasing amount of women will be involved in violent crime. An increasing amount of women will rape. An increasing amount of women will murder. And no, I don't believe transwomen are out to get me, just like I don't believe men are out to get me. But any man can pretend to be a woman, commit crime and have it recorded as a woman's crime by saying they are transgender. They can then be sent to a women's prison and commtt further crime against women there. This is actually happening at the moment.

An increasing amount of women's positions as specific women's officers will be held by people who don't know or can't imagine what it's like to not have enough money for sanitary products, not to be taken seriously by a doctor when in pain, to feel intimidated by someone much much bigger and stronger than you, to have your ideas not taken seriously.

Companies will be able to say 50% of their workforce are women and they have no gender pay gap and it will be true. 50% of their board of directors are women and it will be true. Women of child bearing age may be discriminated against in favour of a woman of child bearing age who does not a female body. Companies who do this could do it blatantly and openly, because all of those women will be legally the same. A woman can't say she has been discriminated against for promotion or employment if there is no legal definition of a woman that means a person who has been female since conception.

The amount of money the highest earning woman in the United States will be trotted out as evidence that women also earn millions of dollars. Women with very lived experience as women will win accolades as women of the year. Women who know what it's like to be a woman will not.

Breaking women's sports records will become unattainable for women. Scholarships and bursaries based on sports will not be available for women. Contact sports will become unsafe for women as women's bodies are more fragile and susceptible to damage from bodies that are bigger, heavier and stronger than them.

Women who are survivors of male violence including rape will not be able to request a born female health care practitioner. Because gender dysphoria trumps women's trauma.

Women will have no protection in law if the meaning of woman is no longer female. That's the way law works. It's all words and what they mean.

If women weren't facing oppression there wouldn't be laws to protect us. If you change the meaning of woman, the laws become meaningless.

I have great sympathy for anyone suffering from gender dysphoria. It must be terrible. I have fuck all sympathy for men pretending to be women for selfish reasons. If anybody who says they are a woman is a woman, the former group gets lumped in with the latter group, in society and under the law. That's bad for everyone.

Newwayofthinking · 05/07/2020 13:05

@Kelcat9494

Why are Transwoman, more at risk in the bathroom?

If it's because using the male bathroom means other males harass and abuse them, then this needs dealing with.

The only abuse a transwoman, who doesn't pass, would receive in the women toilets, changing rooms is get out this is for women.

Why don't they put effort into campaigning for their own toilets, changing rooms, etc

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 05/07/2020 13:06

The individual in the photo BTW is called Danielle Muscato and no, that's not part of a before and after sequence, that's how they always look. Danielle is legally a woman and uses all female only spaces. Can you understand why many women are now excluded from those spaces for reasons of trauma, religion, or just wanting privacy?

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 13:07

@lionheart

OP: How did you manage to get far enough into this site to see what you describe as 'the hate trans people get on here' but not the arguments made about all of the issues involved?
As mentioned they were a a lot that came up on the "active" page but someone mentioned they get deleted so I wrongly assumed that's what this was all about. Like I've mentioned it was my mistake and I shouldn't have assumed the vast majority of people on here hated trans people, I don't regret posting though as it's given me a lot to think about and research.
OP posts:
WeeBisom · 05/07/2020 13:07

OP, you said “my impression of trans people are those who don't identify with the gender of their body and go through procedures (whether it be the full blown transition or taking medication) to make them identify more with the gender they feel they are.”

I used to think this way too. But unfortunately your ideas about trans people are about ten years out of date. Most trans rights activists deeply disagree with the view that they need to do anything medical to transition because this is considered medical gatekeeping. There are massive fights between those who believe you need dysphoria to be trans and those who think being trans is just about self declaration (truscum v tucute). At the moment the prevailing theory is that you don’t need dysphoria or any kind of medical treatment to qualify as trans. The view you have presented is actually very controversial and is not accepted by stonewall, for example.

So this means that you don’t need any procedures to be trans, and you certainly don’t need to feel any kind of “mismatch” between your body and your mind. It’s not at all unusual to see many “trans women” discuss how much they love their penises.

If there’s no medical requirement to being trans then what makes someone trans? The dominant view today is that someone is trans if they self identify or declare they are trans. That’s it. It’s not necessary to look or act a certain way, or obtain a medical diagnosis. This is why there has been a push for a change in the law to let trans people self identify as whatever sex they like. This would mean that I, a female, could just take a declaration that I feel like a male and then I would be legally male. That’s it. No diagnosis, no medical interventions , nothing . There is a requirement that I should have “lived in my chosen gender” for at least two months but that doesn’t seem to mean anything in practice - women have obtained gender recognition certificates while being in the process of getting IVF treatment, so clearly getting pregnant and having a baby is perfectly compatible with being a man.

What we are concerned about is this complete identification free for all will pose a massive danger for women and girls and will also erode our rights. If being a woman is just as simple as saying “I am a woman” this will enable predatory men to get access to female spaces. I knew a guy who seemed perfectly normal and sweet - he was shy and nerdy. Well it turns out that he had a habit of sneaking into female bathrooms and installing spy cameras. He would film women using the toilet and turn it into pornography- hundreds of his videos made it online. In the end he was caught in the bathroom and a woman raised the alarm. His male presence in the bathroom was automatically suspicious and he has no good reason to be there. And then security found all of his equipment in his bag. But imagine how wonderful it would have been for him if he could identify as a woman! He could just say “I am a woman and I have a right to be here” and then could carry on his merry way. I’d also like to point out that while this crime is rare I would wager it would be a lot more common if the risk of being caught was reduced. Men who masturbate and expose themselves in public report that they are far less likely to do it if official sanctions are in place. When New York City cracked down on men masturbating in the subway the practice almost disappeared over night. Predators are highly risk averse - they don’t want to be caught and embarrassed. Self id laws are a sexual predators dream.

And that’s just the start of it. Forget about toilets - that’s nothing . How about male bodied people in your changing rooms? In rape crisis centres? In women’s shelters ? How about males winning female only positions or scholarships? How about males in female sports? Males being “women’s officers”? Males in intimate caring roles? You turn up for a sexual health check and request a female doctor - it could actually be a male. Oh and because being a woman is all about self identify - that means that “women with penises” are actually lesbian and you’re a bigot if you don’t accept them as women (this isn’t a myth - this is something I’ve personally experienced). How about males in lesbian only clubs and spaces ? A male rapist in a female prison? A male demanding access to your female only waxing business and requesting you wax his private parts ? (Sounds bonkers - there was a massive tribunal case all about this.)

So this was just to catch you up to speed, somewhat, op. We haven’t even covered the erasure of women’s language (various organisations have called us “non men”, menstruators, cervix havers...) the abuse and vitriol that women encounter for even daring to discuss this issue (many women have been fired. A woman just lost her writing job for the sin of tweeting her support of jk Rowling). We haven’t discussed the alarming increase in the number of “trans children” (oh yes and here’s something else. While self Id is fine for adult trans people and is what they want, self id is NOT fine for children who are trans. The demand in this area is that children go on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones as soon as possible. Apparently they will kill themselves if they go through the wrong puberty. Confused yet? Kids need to go on drugs as soon as possible to affirm their gender but adults don’t need to go on any drugs at all. So your medical view of transness is correct - for children).

FantaOra · 05/07/2020 13:07

There you go, OP has become a TERF by page 6 and doesn't want to give away women's rights.Grin

Welcome to FWR!!!

RedDogsBeg · 05/07/2020 13:07

Kelcat9494 You got my back up with your provocative and totally incorrect thread title, you can provide no evidence of this it is a pathetic trope to throw out solely designed to dismiss and shame the posters who frequent this board. However, as you have apologised and admitted you have not read or understood the threads on here I will leave it there but perhaps in future you could take the time to, as the TRA's say, educate yourself on what is actually being said before insulting and demonising a group of people.

On the subject of toilets, you say:

I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia.

You don't sound sorry at all, you are dismissing the trauma that poster has suffered and saying that the trans person and their perceived risk is more important and more worthy, how is that being kind, in your words, to the female who suffered abuse and where does that leave her? Unable to access toilets or changing rooms and you don't care, that is why another poster called you out on your privilege - it doesn't affect you and you give no thought or consideration to those it does, your concern is for TW only.

You say the fault is with the abuser alone, dismissing again the effect this abuse has had on the victim, and state that it isn't trans peoples fault. It's not the fault of the male members of my family either, they would never and have never abused anyone so by your logic they too should be allowed to access female toilets and changing rooms, after all we don't check genitalia do we?

As to the assertion that a trans person is more at risk in a toilet please provide evidence for this, surely you have some?

Whilst you are thinking about risks perhaps you would think about the two young girls, one aged 10 and the other 12, who were attacked and assaulted in the female toilets of a supermarket by a transwoman, would you like to tell them to their faces that trans people are more at risk?

HPFA · 05/07/2020 13:07

So your ex wouldn't go in to a toilet marked female to get to you if he really wanted to? Anyone who wants to get to someone will get to to them

I though that transwomen needed to use female loos because they weren't safe in male ones? But if anyone can go in a female loo if they want to do harm then transwomen presumably aren't safe in there anyway.

I think a lot of what makes the "debate" so vicious is that many TRAs simply refuse to accept the logic of their own position. IF you genuinely believe that a man only needs to say he's a woman to be accepted as a woman then you accept that a woman has no rights to object to a male bodied person going into a female locker room and stripping off. Yet when that's pointed out there's an instant cry of "transphobe". It would be much more honest to say "yes, that is what I believe". At least then we could have a fair argument.

12boo · 05/07/2020 13:07

Hi OP
Could you please give me an example of the "hate" that you're thinking of? That will help me formulate a reply
Thank you

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 05/07/2020 13:08

Thank you for being so open minded Kelcat, I hope you continue to research and learn more.

Odense · 05/07/2020 13:08

bygrabharshammer

You possibly should explain, for the benefit of those at the back that you have posted a picture of a Lady. A specific activist lady.

You don’t want to be responsible for encouraging transphobic thought crime, now do you. 🤣

KindKylie · 05/07/2020 13:10

I hate nobody, and have honestly never seen any trabsphiboa as I would understand it on these boards.

I find your op fascinating, in that you are unable to imagine other people have different feelings to you.

You feel completely OK in mixed sex toilets, it causes you no discomfort whatsoever with men present. But other women have an issue with that - and you don't need to feel the same or even understand why they feel uncomfortable. You just need to appreciate that they really do. They are asking for single sex facilities, wy is it not OK for them to voice that request? Just because you are completely OK with no single sex provision, can you not just know that some women truly feel distressed bu not being able to access single sex spaces, and that their discomfort is as valid as others'?

Why do you just get to brush over every single counter concern you've heard of? Why are all of those worries, which are shared by a huge number of women, to be glossed Iver and dismissed as you so quickly do in your op? Can you not just take a single moment to consider a different viewpoint and see that there is something other than 'hate' in what thousands of people are saying?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/07/2020 13:10

But a totally passing transperson is NOT a Gotcha!

Because the issues are not about individuals. They are about the laws.

Hypothetical whatifery doesn't actually make any point other than the issue us complex and needs to be discussed, openly.

Which is what TRA actions try to shut down.

Instead of asking me if I'd accept Buck Angel as my HCP, ask TRAs why they shut down open discussion.

NeurotrashWarrior · 05/07/2020 13:10

@Kelcat9494

This is a really good long running thread that explains many of the different issues.

It's not about "hating" individual trans people. It's the over arching structural harms the ideology presents to women and girls.

FWIW, you've posted a pic of Buck Angel who has agreed with a lot of the criticism towards the ideology.

Break it down for me? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Swipe left for the next trending thread