Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

[Kelcat9494]

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

@Pepper70 agree 100%.

@Pepper70

Not sure if I speak for most women, so please correct me if I am wrong, but in all my 50 years I have always been mindful of where I walk and go, and at what time of the day/night etc. And trust me, I have travelled the world, sometimes solo, so I am not an overly nervous person! But I have always been mindful of who might be around, should I go the short cut way or the long way– all because, as a woman, sexual violence from people with penises is a threat (obvs not all penises, but its hard to know the good from the bad sometimes). If you are a man, I think it must be really hard to understand how that feels and how, as women, it is with us at our very core. Statistically, there is much more violence against women over the world, compared to violence against transwomen. The point of this is, if I am in a toilet cubicle, and people with penises are able to come into that space, I will feel scared, I might be safe in the cubicle, but when I come out, I don’t know what will happen. Of course, that is not saying I think transwoman are going to rape me (or that I think every man would), but I know that people with penises might, and if anyone can self ID I cannot be sure that some men will not take advantage of this (I have also been lead to believe that 80% of transwomen keep their male genitalia - is this correct). I really feel for transwomen, I have meet some and have had nothing but pleasant experiences, and I am sure that I have shared toilets with them over the years. I think it’s the very real male aggression that seems to permeate the TRA’s that has really made me feel more strongly about this now. Also, I will never think that transwomen in female sport is OK.

This is such a rational and logical explanation, one that many, many women have also shared. I don't know why governments, law makers and policy makers find it so controversial.

I should add, that in theory I don't have a problem with gender neutral toilets, if they had wash hands basin inside the cubicle and if they are situated off corridors on open space. Lots of offices in central London are like this - big long corridor, open at either end, with a bank of toilets down one side, all self contained. I really don't have a problem with that. It's the cubicles then then lead in to the hand washing area with another door somewhere that goes back out to communal areas that gives me concern.

Pepper, I think what you're describing is the legally permitted way to have mixed sex facilities, and I kind of accept them (wiping the seat before use is one of the least pleasant results) but the way theatres and shopping centres have been doing it is to slap a gender neutral sign on the ladies and call it a day. Those organisations are actually breaking the law, AFAIK.

@Pepper70 - yes, this is pretty much my experience and feeling too.

I think most men (and therefore also TW) just have NO IDEA or understanding about what it is like to grow up female and feeling the need to be constantly vigilant about the risk of sex-based attacks.

I was thinking about this the other day when I was clearing out a box and found my old rape alarm - a small unit, about the size of Yorkie bar - which was designed to be carried in the hand and emitted a high-pitched screech if activated. I was given this many years ago when I was working as a sales rep for a company. It was 'standard issue' to all female employees e.g. business cards, company car, rape alarm. How shit is that?

My eyes were further opened as a result of only having sons (not daughters) and realising the freedom they naturally assumed as older teens to walk home alone, take cabs alone, go running alone in secluded places etc.

In fact, this list I saw recently about the things women do to protect themselves pretty much summed it up. thestir.cafemom.com/healthy_living/215107/things-women-do-to-protect-themselves

My (now) DH was staggered when we met that I lock my car doors when I go to pay for petrol. It had never occurred to him that someone might try and get in the car when you're not looking.

My DH once queried that fear with me. I asked him to remember the feelings he had in South Africa when he realised he had taken a wrong turn and was walking down a back street, alone, at dusk, carrying some obviously heavy luggage.

He has never queried that fear again!

But he was shocked that it took such an unusual circumstance for him to realise how much fear women can feel, in broad daylight, in their home town, each and every day!

My DH sometimes goes for a walk at night in our small, rural, town in Ireland. He was amazed when I said I would never do that.

Thanks Divoc2020 that is a shocking, but,true list.

@Pepper70

I should add, that in theory I don't have a problem with gender neutral toilets, if they had wash hands basin inside the cubicle and if they are situated off corridors on open space. Lots of offices in central London are like this - big long corridor, open at either end, with a bank of toilets down one side, all self contained. I really don't have a problem with that. It's the cubicles then then lead in to the hand washing area with another door somewhere that goes back out to communal areas that gives me concern.

This is absolutely fine, I think. Nicer, in fact. Sadly as has been said, what usually happens is that men retain their loos and women's are designated unisex (and even where that doesn't happen, women don't use loos with urinals, so it has happened whatever the labels).

@Milotic

The ironic thing about those pictures is theyd be hugely triggering for the average trans person as they will never ever pass that well.

Sorry but it's a fact. And they know it.

My ex used to spend hours looking at the pictures the hairy panty wearers post. All of 20year old natal females.

That's unhealthy for a 40 year old woman to be aspiring to never mind someone male.

Referring to a trans person as "hairy panty wearers" is transphobic and should be removed.

How do I access this thread, new to mumsnet

Milotic
The ironic thing about those pictures is theyd be hugely triggering for the average trans person as they will never ever pass that well.

Sorry but it's a fact. And they know it.

My ex used to spend hours looking at the pictures the hairy panty wearers post. All of 20year old natal females.

That's unhealthy for a 40 year old woman to be aspiring to never mind someone male.

Referring to a trans person as "hairy panty wearers" is transphobic and should be removed.

It’s actually very transphobic to assume that Milotic was talking about trans people and not just male bodied people with a fetish. Please stop suggesting that all trans people behave in such a manner.

I don't hate trans people.

I do have a lot of concerns about the denial of biological reality. Fact is if you have an XY chromosomes you are biologically and genetically male, and if you have XX chromosomes you are biologically and genetically female. No amount of surgery or artificial hormones changes that.

I don't believe you can be 'born in the wrong body' and have concerns that this narrative may be harming people. On what basis of not feeling you are the right gender is this decision made? Why can a man not have a lot of feminine traits and still be a man? Why can't people just be encouraged to accept who they are and accept that they don't have to fit into typical gender narratives, and that doesn't mean that they are in the 'wrong body'.

I have real concerns about this agenda being pushed onto vulnerable and confused teenagers who may end up making decisions that will harm them for the rest of their life, both on a physical and emotional level.

I have concerns that women only areas like sport are becoming increasingly unfair playing fields as in terms of strength, running speeds etc transwomen are biologically always going to have the edge in these regards being genetically male, so biological females are starting to struggle to win in female sports.

I have concerns that if a biological female feels uncomfortable about sharing a space with a transwoman, whether because of history of abuse, domestic violence, or sheer discomfort; they are continuously being told that their discomfort is secondary to making the transwoman feel comfortable and that they continuously become the second class citizen in this regard.

Mostly I am concerned that the trans community are shouting 'transphobic' and 'trans hatred' every time someone tries to raise these sorts of concerns, no matter how politely, which serves only to stop people being able to have an actual discussion about these concerns in a meaningful and productive way. Many people I know share my concerns but have become increasingly afraid to raise any concerns publicly because their words so often get twisted or painted as trans-hatred, and they genuinely fear for their jobs etc to say anything which isn't 100% pro-trans.

What I want to know is, if a transwoman got sick with a Male cancer what would they do? If it is so hideously transphobic and triggering for them to recognise that woman get periods, what on earth would being told they have prostate, testicular or penile (obviously pre-transition in the last two examples) cancer do to them?!?

@LadyFlumpalot

What I want to know is, if a transwoman got sick with a Male cancer what would they do? If it is so hideously transphobic and triggering for them to recognise that woman get periods, what on earth would being told they have prostate, testicular or penile (obviously pre-transition in the last two examples) cancer do to them?!?

Not necessarily pre-transition LadyFlumpalot. You'd be surprised how many "fully transitioned trans women" retain their fully functioning male genitalia. 85% or thereabouts nowadays. So yes, they DO have the same risk of testicular cancer as all other men. If they're not triggered by looking down and seeing a penis when they remove their clothing after transition, I doubt having cancer in it will trigger them further (apart from the obvious terrible situation of having a horrific condition like cancer).

Referring to a trans person as "hairy panty wearers" is transphobic and should be removed.

Why? That's what they refer to themselves as
They are not trans. They are men who like wearing women's underwear whilst being male.

@GreytExpectations and I'll refer to my rapists as whatever the fuck I want.

My actual trans friends do aswell so go and virtue signal and white knight somewhere else.

HPW freak the living shit out of my trans friends.

BigGee, I'm struggling to articulate what I mean well, but it's something like:

If it's triggering to be reminded that people who have periods are called women because it is something they won't have... surely it will be equally triggering to have hospital staff referring to their prostate, or testicles etc? To have a hospital reaffirming they have a male body?

Apologies if that doesn't make sense!

Milotic

I can’t tell you what to do but I’d ignore those trying to get a rise out of you. Most hear are sympathetic to you I reckon.

Thank you @Deliriumoftheendless but don't worry about me dear. I just like using the bluntest language possible.

People are free to tell me my opinion is transphobic.

But I'll show them up for defending rapists and paedophiles.

It's transphobic to call those people trans in my opinion. Normal trans people don't want to be associated with the fetishists and end up getting assaulted themselves.

People should be thankful I'm referring to my MTF ex as trans tbh because he isn't trans either he told me he hates other trans. Gays are drama. Lesbians are rad fem man haters. And bisexual people like me are greedy cum dumpsters.

Yeah. @GreytExpectations can carry on thinking they know what phobic abuse is. Im the one who lived with transphobia and bi phobia (because btw yes it's still transphobic abuse even if the person doesn't identify as trans).

@LadyFlumpalot

BigGee, I'm struggling to articulate what I mean well, but it's something like:

If it's triggering to be reminded that people who have periods are called women because it is something they won't have... surely it will be equally triggering to have hospital staff referring to their prostate, or testicles etc? To have a hospital reaffirming they have a male body?

Apologies if that doesn't make sense!

No, you're explaining well, its just that the spectrum of "trans" now is so broad that everyone and their cat qualifies. I guess some will be triggered but I expect the majority will just gird their loins and focus on getting better. I think those who would be triggered possibly might be reluctant to take part in sex appropriate health checks, so that's a worry for them. I don't know what the answers would be, probably as many answers are there are individuals affected.

Milotic- no probs, I don’t normally poke my nose in but that got my goat.

You can clearly handle yourself

Has anyone yet pointed out to @Kelcat9494 that one of the photos posted as a "gotcha" is Buck Angel, who shares quite a few of the opinions commonly posted in this here FWR.

There's also plenty that we disagree on (I'm seriously not a big fan of porn, for example, which has been Buck's living) but Buck, if you ever read this, I'd totally sit down for a pint with you. I think we'd have a lovely time.

And in the meantime, @Kelcat9494 might like to visit Buck's twitter account, and be aghast at the terrible, terrible transphobia that Buck (a trans pioneer) expresses by stating that sex differences are a real thing, and that kids shouldn't be fast-tracked to transing.

@ArcheryAnnie

Has anyone yet pointed out to *@Kelcat9494* that one of the photos posted as a "gotcha" is Buck Angel, who shares quite a few of the opinions commonly posted in this here FWR.

There's also plenty that we disagree on (I'm seriously not a big fan of porn, for example, which has been Buck's living) but Buck, if you ever read this, I'd totally sit down for a pint with you. I think we'd have a lovely time.

And in the meantime, @Kelcat9494 might like to visit Buck's twitter account, and be aghast at the terrible, terrible transphobia that Buck (a trans pioneer) expresses by stating that sex differences are a real thing, and that kids shouldn't be fast-tracked to transing.

Hi,

Yes it's been pointed out a few times and I have been on Bucks twitter.

I'm not sure if he'll ever read this but I'm sure he's an interesting chap to have a chat with.

Wasn't really a "gotcha" picture, originally it was more pointing out I'd feel more taken back from seeing buck in the women's toilets, that's all.