Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

[Kelcat9494]

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

I've read JKRs letter - I have a question, I don't know how to find the answer so I hope you don't mind me asking, I don't mean to ask to be spoon fed but do trans men shout as loud as trans woman? Are they asking for the same "rights" as trans woman are? Eg public bathrooms

^*She said something like post rape trauma is something that is dictated by the sufferer. And that is shaped by societal expectations of a woman raped. That we be ashamed, feel dirty, despoiled. Women are socialised into believing that and it deepens their trauma. We should choose not to internalise the stereotypical version of a woman raped.

I know I didn't. I didn't weep, hide myself away pretend it had not happened. I was angry, told people who he was, where he worked. I have no idea why but I refused to be traumatised by it... well, after the shock, the bruises and the immediate feelings of collapse, numbness. Maybe my age (a young Greenham Common era), we were an angry lot of young women!*^

I'm sorry you experienced this, and I respect your opinion but I do think it's not valid for a lot of victims of rape.

My DD was raped and sexually abused repeatedly in the home of their bio mum. When they disclosed they were too young to fully understand what had happened to them. But their over arching feeling was that they were dirty and they were deeply ashamed of it.

I'm happy for you that you didn't feel traumatised, but so so many women and children do. I think it's very unfair to say they choose to feel like that. She's never been given the message that she should feel like that, but she absolutely did and does, it was one of the big barriers to disclosure. I can't help but think the very nature of rape and sexual assault, the fact that they loose control of their body, that sometimes their abuser can even make them feel pleasure when they really dint want to, can make the feelings so much more complicated than other forms of assault.

Your opinion of course is completely valid, it applies you and is based on tire experience. I just wanted to express an alternative one.

Part of the reason for all the pressure on colleagues, strangers and friends to comply with preferred pronoun usage is because it is used as evidence that the person is perceived as living as the opposite sex.

@Kelcat9494

I've read JKRs letter - I have a question, I don't know how to find the answer so I hope you don't mind me asking, I don't mean to ask to be spoon fed but do trans men shout as loud as trans woman? Are they asking for the same "rights" as trans woman are? Eg public bathrooms

The policies are written so that transgender persons can use whichever toilet or changing room they are comfortable in because absolutely no one wanted to write a policy requiring girls who socially transition to boys to use the men's loo. Transwomen regularly tell transmen to shut up because they are privileged men. So, no. Transmen usually make the news for having babies, while transwomen make the news for various accomplishments.

@Kelcat9494

I've read JKRs letter - I have a question, I don't know how to find the answer so I hope you don't mind me asking, I don't mean to ask to be spoon fed but do trans men shout as loud as trans woman? Are they asking for the same "rights" as trans woman are? Eg public bathrooms

Some transmen are amongst the most vocal transactivists. Stephen Whittle for example.

I always forget about Whittle after the way they showed their ass here.

Transmen usually make the news for having babies, while transwomen make the news for various accomplishments.

I should also have mentioned Freddie the Seahorse. Got a GRC saying Freddie was legally male, then immediately got pregnant. Now campaigning to be named as 'father' on the child's birth certificate, so that the child would have no mother.

What some of these transmen are doing behind the scenes is dangerous in a less obvious way than what transwomen are doing with all their shouting about women's spaces. They are actually trying to redefine what sex means for all of us.

@TehBewilderness

Part of the reason for all the pressure on colleagues, strangers and friends to comply with preferred pronoun usage is because it is used as evidence that the person is perceived as living as the opposite sex.

How Liars Create 'the illusion of truth' Neurohacks/Psychology How Liars create the 'illusion of truth'

Recently, a team led by Lisa Fazio of Vanderbilt University set out to test how the illusion of truth effect interacts with our prior knowledge. Would it affect our existing knowledge? They used paired true and un-true statements, but also split their items according to how likely participants were to know the truth (so "The Pacific Ocean is the largest ocean on Earth" is an example of a "known" items, which also happens to be true, and "The Atlantic Ocean is the largest ocean on Earth" is an un-true item, for which people are likely to know the actual truth).

Their results show that the illusion of truth effect worked just as strongly for known as for unknown items, suggesting that prior knowledge won’t prevent repetition from swaying our judgements of plausibility.

To cover all bases, the researchers performed one study in which the participants were asked to rate how true each statement seemed on a six-point scale, and one where they just categorised each fact as "true" or "false". Repetition pushed the average item up the six-point scale, and increased the odds that a statement would be categorised as true. For statements that were actually fact or fiction, known or unknown, repetition made them all seem more believable.

At first this looks like bad news for human rationality, but – and I can't emphasise this strongly enough – when interpreting psychological science, you have to look at the actual numbers.

What Fazio and colleagues actually found, is that the biggest influence on whether a statement was judged to be true was... whether it actually was true. The repetition effect couldn’t mask the truth. With or without repetition, people were still more likely to believe the actual facts as opposed to the lies.

This shows something fundamental about how we update our beliefs – repetition has a power to make things sound more true, even when we know differently, but it doesn't over-ride that knowledge

'Trans women are women' as a mantra is a psychological experiment.

@Kelcat9494

I've read JKRs letter - I have a question, I don't know how to find the answer so I hope you don't mind me asking, I don't mean to ask to be spoon fed but do trans men shout as loud as trans woman? Are they asking for the same "rights" as trans woman are? Eg public bathrooms

Do you mean, are Transmen (so, female to male) who generally still have vaginas keen to get into places where people with penises (and usually greater physical strength) are? Such as toilets, sports teams, gay bars, prisons? There are some, but for obvious reasons, not so many or they don’t get so much air time.

I don’t know if any Transmen have tried to get into the Freemasons. Transwomen are allowed to be members and are referred to as “Brother”.

I don’t know if any Transboys have tried to get into the all boys Eton College. But they appear to allow pupils who joined as a boy to remain after becoming a transgirl.

I also don’t know if any Transmen have tried to claim inheritance intended for eldest sons. But that is specifically prevented in English law.

I don’t believe Transmen are permitted into the Catholic priesthood.

Eton college accepts male children only, their admissions policy is very clear.

Steven Whittle isn’t ‘vocal’ per se. SW believes the best way to remove rights from women is very very quietly and very very carefully so that no one notices until it’s a done deal. So... I dunno. There’s no shouting. But a closed doors negotiation and deal doesn’t require shouting.

SW has gained a lot of power talking quietly and sold women down the river.

@HH160bpm

Eton college accepts male children only, their admissions policy is very clear.

How do they define male? Because there will be parents of female to male trans children who feel that their child is male.

How do they define male? Because there will be parents of female to male trans children who feel that their child is male.

I don't know what their policy is, but presumably the legal definition.

they appear to allow pupils who joined as a boy to remain after becoming a transgirl

I know this is the policy at my old all-girls' school. They are clear that they are single sex, not single gender.

It's the same as primogeniture (male inheritance only). A female who identifies as a male cannot inherit under those laws. They don't recognise the female as male.

Neither do the Freemasons. They only allow biological males to join, not female to males. Funnily enough, if a male is already a member and transitions to female, they are allowed to stay.

Jobs for the boys, eh?

Interesting.
the WI will accept MTF transpersons and wished them a happy Pride. When Graham Linehan pointed out that there were still actually male, he got banned from Twitter.
Guides will accept mtf children in their organisation and will allow them to go on camp with girls, without telling the parents of the other children that there is a biological boy sharing a tent with teen-age girls. Any guide leaders who think this is wrong have to resign or get dismissed.
Interesting that all transgender issues seem to end up being worse for females, isn't it?

So why is no-one on twitter calling Eton, Freemasons etc transphobic?

Funny that. You’d think it was only MtF that matter..

The thing with being a lib fem is that you don't have you confront your own misogyny. It's quite difficult to critically examine your own beliefs.

Wrong thread, don't know how that happened!

Twitter is a hot bed of misogyny.
The abuse a woman gets for not toeing the trans-line is disgusting (see images of the abuse JKR got, for instance) whereas someone like Monroe Bergorf can tweet about 'hairy lesbians' and he will be asked to lead the Woman's March.
This is something seriously wrong in society at the moment and women and girls are going to suffer.
The most worrying part is that women who are usually fairly liberal, live and let live, are allowing this to happy.
See FairPlayforWomen and support them. Support the LGB alliance (NOT trans,).

Not sure if I speak for most women, so please correct me if I am wrong, but in all my 50 years I have always been mindful of where I walk and go, and at what time of the day/night etc. And trust me, I have travelled the world, sometimes solo, so I am not an overly nervous person! But I have always been mindful of who might be around, should I go the short cut way or the long way– all because, as a woman, sexual violence from people with penises is a threat (obvs not all penises, but its hard to know the good from the bad sometimes). If you are a man, I think it must be really hard to understand how that feels and how, as women, it is with us at our very core. Statistically, there is much more violence against women over the world, compared to violence against transwomen. The point of this is, if I am in a toilet cubicle, and people with penises are able to come into that space, I will feel scared, I might be safe in the cubicle, but when I come out, I don’t know what will happen. Of course, that is not saying I think transwoman are going to rape me (or that I think every man would), but I know that people with penises might, and if anyone can self ID I cannot be sure that some men will not take advantage of this (I have also been lead to believe that 80% of transwomen keep their male genitalia - is this correct). I really feel for transwomen, I have meet some and have had nothing but pleasant experiences, and I am sure that I have shared toilets with them over the years. I think it’s the very real male aggression that seems to permeate the TRA’s that has really made me feel more strongly about this now. Also, I will never think that transwomen in female sport is OK.

I agree with you, Pepper.
If you were to say such things on Twitter you would be labelled as a bigot...

Have a look at the 'it will never happen' resource thread.

Case after case illustrating why we are wary because of evidenced instances where trans women and men pretending to be trans women have abused women and children.

Wary does not equal hatred or phobia. It's about self preservation and protecting the vulnerable.