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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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HH160bpm · 05/07/2020 14:01

For millennia women have been considered unclean and discriminated against due to our biology. Girls are subjected to FGM to remove their sexual responses and to ensure that any pre marriage sexual conduct will be detected and punished. Now we still have that plus being told you can’t discuss your biology related to our sex as it’s excluding people but also to check our privilege as we have something they don’t. While being referred to as a uterus haver or menstruator by the same group that forbid us to own it as part of our sex.

It feels like white outrage at black culture reclaiming racial slurs. Or straight outrage at gay culture reclaiming sexual orientation slurs. But worse.

isabellerossignol · 05/07/2020 14:02

I don't hate transwomen but I really don't care about their hurt feelings at not being allowed to force everyone to pretend that they are women. I do care about all the women who would feel unable to use mixed sex facilities, either through their own uneasiness, or through religious belief, or through pressure from family. I want privacy and it is not hate speech to ask for it.

NotAGirl · 05/07/2020 14:03

No hate but caution. There's many issues you raised but to answer just one.

I have been harassed by an aggressive transwoman in an otherwise empty ladies toilet. This person was much stronger and bigger than me, I've never been harassed by another woman - despite using ladies toilets shared by other women all the rest of my life. Frankly it was scary.

wifflewafflebiscuit · 05/07/2020 14:04

I've never seen any hatred of trans people on MN. I have however seen many concerns about safeguarding of minors, dilution or eradication of women's rights, links to hideous aggressive behaviour by TRAs, dubious and immoral behaviour by large TRA organisations and a refusal by TRAs to listen allow debate.
The feminists all come across as thoughtful and considered.

bluebluezoo · 05/07/2020 14:05

Have you told all the tranwomen on twitter telling JKR to “suck my lady cock” to #bekind?

Thought not.

because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face

No, they don’t. Not at a rate equal to or higher than the rest of the population anyway.

Fairenuff · 05/07/2020 14:08

TWAW and #nodebate have done a pretty good job at making sure there is a lot of ignorance out there regarding the impact on women's rights and the safety of women and girls.

This is why they don't want us talking about it. Because when we do, we make perfect, logic, rational sense.

ItsLateHumpty · 05/07/2020 14:13

@Kelcat9494 FYI please see

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3752551-Petition-for-third-spaces-Fionne-Miranda?

It’s a petition for 3rd spaces thread started by a transwoman to highlight a petition created by two other transwomen for third spaces.

DopamineHits · 05/07/2020 14:15

My main and overwhelming issue with trans rights is that someone fully presenting as a man - male appearance including beards/moustaches, male voice, male clothing - can on a whim say "I'm a woman" and gain access to women only spaces/roles, including ones created specifically to bring more women into an area. And that trans ideology says that if I question that, however politely, I'm a radical feminist who hates trans people.

I'm fully supportive of genuine trans people. But there is also an aspect of this which looks like a blatant Gotcha! by misogynist men, aided and abetted by naive and idealist young people, mostly female.

And another worrying aspect is that some young women are very obviously trying to become men to escape the huge pressures and harassment which come with puberty. Potentially permanently altering appearance, voices, and fertility to sidestep sexism, abuse, and porn culture, when what we should be doing is challenging that. Instead of feeble threads where we bleat that it's so unfaiiir that the word master may be phased out as we keep trying to move towards a more equal society.

I am not in the best of moods today...

12boo · 05/07/2020 14:16

@DopamineHits

My main and overwhelming issue with trans rights is that someone fully presenting as a man - male appearance including beards/moustaches, male voice, male clothing - can on a whim say "I'm a woman" and gain access to women only spaces/roles, including ones created specifically to bring more women into an area. And that trans ideology says that if I question that, however politely, I'm a radical feminist who hates trans people.

I'm fully supportive of genuine trans people. But there is also an aspect of this which looks like a blatant Gotcha! by misogynist men, aided and abetted by naive and idealist young people, mostly female.

And another worrying aspect is that some young women are very obviously trying to become men to escape the huge pressures and harassment which come with puberty. Potentially permanently altering appearance, voices, and fertility to sidestep sexism, abuse, and porn culture, when what we should be doing is challenging that. Instead of feeble threads where we bleat that it's so unfaiiir that the word master may be phased out as we keep trying to move towards a more equal society.

I am not in the best of moods today...

Agreed
Ethicalbluey45 · 05/07/2020 14:17

OP I think your post is very insulting to most of us I have been on Mumsnet since it first started I think 2000 and have never heard anyone discriminating anyone and I just feel this platform is quite the opposite IT EDUCATES PEOPLE most people here go through a lot of situations in their lives some life changing and yes GENDER related could be pertaining to themselves , their friends , their relatives and their children as well . I hope this is not just a post to spark a heated discussion but remember we are dealing with real life issues and scenarios from genuine people. I am happy to say this platform has saved my bacon a lot of times yes we can be abit brutally honest but we know when to draw the line.

Hope this has given you an insight to what we are all about we all have had stories to share both good and bad

Ramblingwords · 05/07/2020 14:18

@Kelcat9494

As one individual who mostly lurks here so that I don’t feel like lonely feminist in a world going mad, I’d just like to say thanks for posting. We need more people to sit up and ask, “just why are these otherwise sane and intelligent women behaving this way” and then actually listen to the answers.

This is my POV. I get that it won’t necessarily be shared by many here. I’ve come to this POV from being a woman all my life. Probably a fairly masculine woman by imposed and stereotypical standards, in my aesthetic presentation and life choices. Nonetheless I am a woman who happens to be heterosexual, a wife and mother of 3. I’m also a mental health professional of 20+years.

I will start by saying that I fundamentally believe that there are a very small number of people for whom gender dysphoria is a real thing, and the solution is supported medical transition.

However I don’t think the current rhetoric is actually about this group. I have met trans people who feel completely alienated by current trans-activism. Completely anecdotally, from my limited experience it seems to be trans men (FtM) who feel most alienated, and I find that an interesting issue in itself. What is different about the life experience, attitudes and expectations of trans men that this should be the case?

I disagree with the notion that sexually predatory and abusive behaviour among trans women is being overblown by feminists. My own life experience, including professionally, has shown me that misophilia, autogynaephilia, sexually fetishistic transvestism and paedophilia exist in the male (and more rarely female) population to a not insignificant extent. A minority but a solid minority with the result that a significant proportion of the female population can call themselves victims/survivors.

I used to see some of these fetishists as psychotherapy patients, it was such a common issue at one time. It was very clear that these men, dressing as women, were getting their rocks off rather than experiencing gender dysphoria. There was often fetishistic exhibitionism associated with it. Extremely anecdotally I was assaulted by a MtF fetishist once because I wasn’t inhabiting my female body as he thought I should. My shoes, apparently, were too masculine. Funny I suppose but an interesting prediction for how some MtF trans people take ownership of how woman should behave and dress. These people seem to have disappeared from clinical practice; I wonder where have they gone?

Furthermore there is clear evidence from the recent past that those who wish to pursue abusive sexual behaviours are prepared to go to great lengths to be able to do this in plain sight. Pursuing the priesthood, paediatrics, gynaecology, even girls gymnastics (1 male doctor over 500 child victims, anally and vaginally penetrated). Why would using a trans identity to access women and children’s spaces be excluded from this list? I just can’t see how it is transphobic to say that self ID could provide another hiding in plain sight alibi for abusers who are not genuinely trans. Most GC women are not saying that actual trans people are paedophiles and sexual predators. They are saying that self ID provides another opportunity for abusers to easily access vulnerable women and children. The aggression with which this view is silenced alarms me.

Sticking with the MtF trans women issue, aside from the nefarious motivations that might apply to a minority, I also have concern that transitioning has become a brutal and extreme escape from toxic masculinity. For some men, those who have been traumatised or exposed to extreme toxic masculinity, it is clear that women’s spaces/clothes/traditional roles etc represent a desirable safe and nurturing space. There have been some army and police MtF transitioner-detransitioners who have spoken eloquently about this. This is neither good for women (reinforcing gender stereotypes and limiting the role of women in the world) or men (the target should be changing toxic masculinity not escaping it).

But I am most concerned about how all of this is playing out when it comes to kids. The adult brain isn’t mature until 25. Kids have really shitty executive function because their frontal cortices are taking longer to fill out, puberty itself is an incredibly variable process. It is completely biological plausible to expect that any individual child will travel through various notions of their own gender identity and sexuality on their biological journey to adulthood. And yes, sometimes they struggle. But I think the notion of changing sex, but for a tiny minority for whom we really don’t yet have the science to identify (despite what Mermaids et al say) seems like a pseudo-solution. I think we would do better by children if we protected them from sexualisation, Kardashisation, social media driven sexual ideals and championed the message that regardless of your biology, there is no imperative to aspire slavishly to gender stereotypes as they are currently presented. Nor do you have to change your biological sex to pursue your individual goals, whatever they may be. Girls still need feminism, perhaps moreso now than for a long time. But boys need to steered away from toxic masculinity too, without seeing changing gender as the only escape. The leap forward with labelling all of this as gender dysphoria rather than appreciating the challenge today’s kids have with non-conformity to gender stereotypes and persisting negative ideas about homosexuality, seems completely insane to me. I find a lot of the fervour around children transitioning to be very homophobic and a massive backward step for gender equality.

I’m not sure what the solution is here. I wouldn’t advocate medical treatment before 25 (this is the age of true biological adulthood). Children should be supported through their self-exploration without an agenda. No Mermaids involvement in schools. No self ID. Evidence based medicine approach to assessment and treatment. I do believe in equality for those who go on to transition. And for that small group of individuals for whom transitioning is the correct treatment, I think the process is too long and potentially traumatising.

The TWAW mantra is infuriating as it is surely not insulting to TW to say that they have not had the lived experience of being women from birth*. Those of us who have need space, TW need space with other TW and we need spaces that are shared too...aggressively telling women to share their space with TW was never going to end well. In my opinion TW are TW, with a unique life experience that I know little of. And, yes, there are those who self-ID but have barely transitioned at all (and don’t intend to) which raises questions as to the legitimacy of their place in certain spaces.

*I once got caught up in a discussion about the shittiness of catcalling. I’d been catcalled in the street by some drunken men outside a pub. I had been running all over town between work and collecting kids, trying to squeeze in some errands and get back to my car before the meter ran out...and just to make the day crappier I get the usual demands to smile, escalating to “moody cow” etc when I didn’t comply. I told them to fuck off and gave them the Vs. Later I was bemoaning the situation on another feminist forum, discussing how sick I am of this shit. It started when I about 10/11. That’s when I became fair game for this predatory behaviour, abuse and entitlement from men. In discussing this with a group of online feminists, one was strongly dismissive, belittling my life experience, telling me I should be grateful for this intrusion in my life, even told me it was validating. Later it became apparent that this was a TW. So yeah, maybe it would have been validating for them. But TW don’t have the life experience of women. And I don’t have theirs.

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 14:19

@DopamineHits

My main and overwhelming issue with trans rights is that someone fully presenting as a man - male appearance including beards/moustaches, male voice, male clothing - can on a whim say "I'm a woman" and gain access to women only spaces/roles, including ones created specifically to bring more women into an area. And that trans ideology says that if I question that, however politely, I'm a radical feminist who hates trans people.

I'm fully supportive of genuine trans people. But there is also an aspect of this which looks like a blatant Gotcha! by misogynist men, aided and abetted by naive and idealist young people, mostly female.

And another worrying aspect is that some young women are very obviously trying to become men to escape the huge pressures and harassment which come with puberty. Potentially permanently altering appearance, voices, and fertility to sidestep sexism, abuse, and porn culture, when what we should be doing is challenging that. Instead of feeble threads where we bleat that it's so unfaiiir that the word master may be phased out as we keep trying to move towards a more equal society.

I am not in the best of moods today...

I agree with this whole heartily, I think what I was trying to say originally is I don't have a problem with genuine trans women using the bathroom to do their business - I just didn't realise the repercussions of what would happen if it was allowed and that unfortunately some gross men would take advantage of it. (Also recognising now that some women don't want to share facilities with trans women which is understandable and needs to be recognised)
OP posts:
Carouselfish · 05/07/2020 14:19

For me op, I have no more hate for a person who imagines themselves as the opposite sex than I do for religious people or flat earthers. I object to being told I have to believe their fantasy although I'm happy to be polite, call people she/he according to preference and not argue belief systems in daily interactions. This politeness doesn't extend to outright lying however. I'm for a third space in the circumstances you describe. I AM angry that the movement is reinforcing gender stereotypes by saying if you don't fit one set of them, you must be in the wrong body, as if body and mind are separate and as if all men and all women are the same level of masculine or feminine. The confusion this presents to people who aren't stereotypical, who might be questioning their sexuality and who might get be led down an irreversible surgical and hormonal path is terrible.

Fearandsurprise · 05/07/2020 14:22

Privilege was mentioned earlier in the thread, so I thought it was worth mentioning this:

On another thread, a poster referred to some people having the “privilege of confidence“ to deal with situations that others might find challenging.

This confidence might be due to personality, upbringing, life experience, access to therapy to deal with issues, or many other factors.

For all of us, I think it can be worth checking if we have this privilege when we think that everyone should be able to cope with something in the same way that we would (such as a woman who has experienced violence from men dealing with a male-bodied person in a female-only space).

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 05/07/2020 14:22

OP, I'm glad you're listening and learning and it's admirable to admit that you were misinformed (I'd be interested to know your sources). FWR have this thread we refer people to who want learn more (annoyed it wasn't a sticky as I assumed it was!)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Grab a cuppa and get stuck in Smile

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/07/2020 14:22

OP I think your post is very insulting to most of us I have been on Mumsnet since it first started I think 2000 Have you read the whole thread @Ethicalbluey45?

You are castugating OP when she has already, pages ago and in quite a few posts, said she can now see she was being naive and was wrong! She is reading with an open mind....

Ninkanink · 05/07/2020 14:24

I’m not going to comment on the OP itself and related discussion just now as others have done so quite comprehensively.

But I do want to take issue with the claim that apparently lots of ‘hate threads’ on the active page are deleted. That simply is not true. Here and there individual comments are deemed unacceptable as they do not fall within the very strict guidelines, maybe once in a while an OP/resultant thread goes that way, but I think it is fair to say that most of those are deleted for reasons of terminology and not actually due to hateful sentiment or ‘-phobia’.

Mumsnet is overwhelmingly supportive and inclusive where legitimately warranted, just absolutely not at the expense of protections of women and children in law and in wider society.

If you (the collective you) think that women having clear & definite boundaries & adamantly demanding gatekeeping & safeguarding of children and vulnerable young people is -phobic then you’re the one with the problem.

Fairenuff · 05/07/2020 14:24

Apart from anything else, saying TWAW is just not true and it is gaslighting to insist it is.

We are being forced into compelled speech.

I honestly think that if I was in court and judge ordered me to refer to my male attacker as 'she' I would rather take the fine or prison sentence and then sue for being punished for refusing to lie in court.

Fairenuff · 05/07/2020 14:28

You are castugating OP when she has already, pages ago and in quite a few posts, said she can now see she was being naive and was wrong! She is reading with an open mind....

Oh, you are assuming OP is female. I was assuming male. How funny.

022828MAN · 05/07/2020 14:29

You're clearly confused OP. Protecting our sex based rights is not hate towards the trans community.

Ninkanink · 05/07/2020 14:29

@Fairenuff

Apart from anything else, saying TWAW is just not true and it is gaslighting to insist it is.

We are being forced into compelled speech.

I honestly think that if I was in court and judge ordered me to refer to my male attacker as 'she' I would rather take the fine or prison sentence and then sue for being punished for refusing to lie in court.

I have thought in depth about that too and concluded that I, too, absolutely would refuse to comply. I am not ever going to be ordered by anyone to deny what I absolutely know to be true. Especially not in those awful circumstances.

That absolutely will be hill I die on.

RedDogsBeg · 05/07/2020 14:30

everyone deserves access to a safe space.

Indeed, and if the spaces allocated to them by dint of their biology are unsafe then address why they are unsafe, make them safe or provide an alternative that does not remove or render another safe space unsafe.

Young boys, teen boys, gay men, elderly men, disabled men should all be safe within the male toilets that are allocated to them on the basis of their sex, (as should transwomen and I've seen no evidence they are more at risk or that the male toilets are awash with the blood and battered bodies of transwomen, do please correct me and provide evidence to the contrary if there is any). If any of the above are unsafe the solution is NOT to throw open the doors of the female toilets and use the women in there as human shields, placing them in danger, stripping away their rights to safety, privacy and dignity. If there is an issue, identify it, tackle it and rectify it stop using women as support humans and the default for all problem solving - leave women and women's rights alone.

Let's face it males have had their hands on the levers of power and the finance that enables that power for millennia more than enough time I would have thought to have sorted out the problems of their own sex if they were so inclined but their misogyny and apathy means they won't.

donquixotedelamancha · 05/07/2020 14:31

Btw, Buck Angel, the trans man in your first picture is not down with TRA bs either. You might want to talk to him about why he 'hates trans people'.

This. Part of why I oppose self-ID is because it will be terrible for trans people (perhaps worse than for women). Many transsexuals are appauled at things like the campaign to scrap women's sports.

I think what I was trying to say originally is I don't have a problem with genuine trans women using the bathroom to do their business

I think this is a bit of a red herring. The people you posted about are not going to get challenged in a bathroom- nor is any transwoman who makes the effort to present as female. Seeing men who make no effort to pass demand the removal of women's rights will inspire more transphobia (actually transphobia, not just uppity women saying no).

rc22 · 05/07/2020 14:31

@Ramblingwords I love your post.

twitteriserasingus · 05/07/2020 14:32

@kelkat9494 There have been a lot of posts like yours on these boards, often from trans activists who want to stir up trouble so apologies if it seemed like you were under attack at times for your naivety. If you are one of the growing number of women who is about to realise what's actually going down here, welcome to the gang.

I would not describe myself as hating trans people. In terms of toilets, if a female presenting person rocked up, actually, I personally wouldn't blink. There are bigger issues. Women's sport - disaster. Male bodied people in women's prisons who have prior sex offences and go on to attack the women in prison - dangerous. There are lots of other examples that just seem wrong, especially where the trans person is still male bodied.

I honestly believe that my tomboyish younger self, uncomfortable in my own body like lots of teenagers, attracted to women, confused, feeling alone, would today be convinced I was a trans man and popped onto puberty blockers and transitioned.

After some difficult teenage years I had loving lesbian relationships and went on to have a child with a man. The ideology that is in schools now would have stolen my future.