Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

[Kelcat9494]

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

@Ramblingwords I love your post.

OP every woman who considers this question starts in your position, it’s totally normal, not least because in patriarchal society women are expected to be considerate, kind and empathetic to others. Thing is, we have needs too, and not just those women who have been sexually harassed or traumatised by men or those whose religion restricts being in spaces with unknown men but all of us. We all deserve privacy, dignity and safety.

Being considerate of others (especially if they happen to be women) is not a trait expected of men and I believe this is why a lot of men engaging in this debate parrot that we must all look at this from the trans point of view. They don’t even think women may possibly have needs of their own as they never look at anything through our eyes. You only need to see the disbelief when women speak of how vulnerable they feel walking home alone, for example, and all the little things we do to keep ourselves safe such as holding keys in hand, sticking to well lit routes, telling people when to expect us back. These are things men never do and have no idea we do on a daily basis.

Being female and having grown up in the UK I have been subject to street harassment by men since puberty. I think as I’m shorter than average I’m more of a target as I obviously can’t fight back. I have never experienced this type of harassment in female only spaces and I really don’t want that to change. I feel safe in female loos and changing rooms, I feel free of the ‘male gaze’ which made puberty especially traumatic.

Having spoken of being harassed when I was 13, wearing school uniform on public transport by a man in his 20s/30s women have responded with sympathy and understanding. Men have told me to stop being a victim and that I should have reported it as if that man harassed anyone else it would be my fault. So victim shaming and blaming. This is how women are treated by men, we are blamed and shamed to shut us up. Well I for one won’t be told to shut up anymore. If we want men to understand our point of view we must shout about it, constantly, they’re not asking or listening so we need to shout. Our society is weighted against us in every way.

This argument isn’t just about a few kindly trans women being able to feel comfortable and pee where they want, this is about the end of sex-based rights and provisions. If sex based rights are converted into gender based rights everyone is put in a melting pot that helps no one and unfairly disadvantages women. I’m so glad you’ve read nd understood women’s opinions, keep reading, start shouting.

I think most Transwomen would potentially be in great danger of verbal abuse and physical assault in men’s public toilets.
I would hate for them to suffer the fear, pain and humiliation that such incidents would certainly create.
I think there is a lesser danger of similar behaviour to transwomen in women’s toilets but some women are aggressive, both verbally and physically. It might be that the trans woman is physically stronger but in a very vulnerable position so unable to defend themselves.
My old neighbour was a trans woman and we always treated one another with respect and I would have no problem with her using a women’s public toilet because I knew she had fully transitioned and felt she posed no danger to anyone. She would have looked out of place in the men’s but if attacked could probably have laid her aggressor out.
To be honest, I genuinely believe that for the safety of all , additional safe spaces for trans women and trans men should be available. That could mean toilets in single pods.
Also, could someone explain why I, a woman assigned the female sex at birth and happy with that, is now often referred to as a cis woman? I genuinely don’t understand this.

Oh, you are assuming OP is female. I was assuming male. How funny. Ooh! How very sexist of me/us!

You are being disingenuous OP suggesting that all transitioning people are lovely and what could be the problem? Women want their own spaces and not to be reduced to ridiculous labels such as 'those who menstruate'. Let's flip your question: what's wrong with women having their own spaces?

OP - you refer to “genuine transwomen”. Have a look at the Stonewall Trans umbrella to see that this includes cross-dressers and others - with the vast majority of male-born people under that umbrella retaining a fully-operational penis and testicles. Most of those who have had surgery have only had chest implants or facial surgery.

Not all women menstruate or get pregnant. But all people who do menstruate and get pregnant are women. Yes!!!

Likewise, not all men are rapists, but all big rapey penises are definitely attached to men yes!!!!

Women are asking for the law to be upheld so that safe spaces do exist as many TRAs are advocating for the right to legally identify as a women without a medical or surgical transition which means any man with an agenda could enter women's spaces.

If you've not noticed men, and men who dress as women don't really go around wearing badges that say "I am/not a rapist"

All of this with bells on!

@Fairenuff definitely a female OP!

There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own

@twitteriserasingus Yes. I support teaching about sexual and gender identities in schools but there is a danger that kids will think, "I've got to pick one and I've got to pick it now." I think largely people have to get into adulthood and experience life before they can even begin to get their head around their identity.

Actually Curious I think you're right as OP talks about having to buy sanpro. I'm always surprised when women don't actually get it and think it's just about some gentle soul peeing in the next cubicle.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So your ex wouldn't go in to a toilet marked female to get to you if he really wanted to?

Not mine. It was nice to have some respite occasionally. Because the social contract used to be that men stay out. My abusive partner used to wait outside. Many women have said this. Please don't use your ill thought out internet gotchas to proclaim on matters of which you are ignorant.

Firstly dont call me ignorant - I am not proclaiming anything

secondly, if someone is out to get you, having a sign on a door will not stop them.

But I do want to take issue with the claim that apparently lots of ‘hate threads’ on the active page are deleted. That simply is not true.

Yes. This.

OP. Why did you think that there were hate threads? Again, I have read all your posts. But I would like to know where you initially formed the idea. Twitter, other mumsnet discussions? Who had you been reading?

There are very few threads deleted. Many threads are started with the intention of grabbing screenshots and posting them as proof of the hate. Those are deleted sometimes. Lately, we have had a slew of threads started with the point being to shame any woman who expresses doubt about TW AW. Sometimes more than one a day. And lately, mumsnet have watched over them and removed pots that violate their guidelines (and posts quoting those posts) so it looks like Swiss cheese.

But much is learned on those threads too. New information gets posted and discussed with a fresh approach. Many times those who set out to shame women for their views merely post a few times and then leave. But it is the discussions that happen where there is sometimes new thoughts formed.

But, there is so much activity being targeted by people who which to close down this board on other platforms that it is interesting to know where people are forming their negative opinions from.

Or is it really simple in that it is just the titles of the threads?

@Waspnest

OP why not read-read-read until you understand more rather than just jumping in and expecting everyone to spoon feed you information.

So OP cannot have a conversation, before reading and becoming an expert?

@Ramblingwords, an interesting and thoughtful post. Thank you

@rc22 Thank you...it ended up a bit longer than intended, but I’ve been having to explain myself a lot recently, and occasionally people are actually listening.

secondly, if someone is out to get you, having a sign on a door will not stop them. Except there is something about that sign on the female loos that does stop angry and aggressive men! That male socilaising, the unwritten social contract.

As Erish said, many women post on so many threads that they escape from their abusive OH by dipping into public loos. I have done so myself. So it obviously has some affect on some men.

The fact that some men react aggressively or violently to male people who don’t fit their ideas of masculinity is a male problem. The solution is not to use women as human shields, it’s not even an option under the new methodology. It’s not possible for anyone to use female single sex spaces as a refuge from male violence when you have made the spaces unchallengeably mixed sex.

A sign on the door doesn't stop people

Social convention does

Knowledge that everyone will know they are up to no good does

I think most Transwomen would potentially be in great danger of verbal abuse and physical assault in men’s public toilets.

You think, do you have any evidence of this?

Males in my family have on several occasions shared public toilets with transwomen and have stated that there has never been verbal abuse or physical assault whilst they were present nor, to their knowledge, has any been reported.

CuriousaboutSamphire I have only just read the apology that's what makes us all human regardless of gender as my famous quote goes it takes one family to educate and one to destroy I feel we are all here to educate and be educated.

I think most Transwomen would potentially be in great danger of verbal abuse and physical assault in men’s public toilets.

Presumably that is an obviously male transwoman? I don't think there is substantial risk in men's loos- I've used them for 40 years and have never seen anyone (transvestites included) being randomly abused. Men don't speak or make eye contact in the loo.

Certainly some knobheads target people who are different. There will be some places (mostly pubs) which would not be safe, but this is sadly true of many groups in society; I've been run out of a pub for being Catholic. I think the main risk in toilets is probably women being sexually assaulted.

OP. Why did you think that there were hate threads?

I think, actually, there is some hatred of despicable behaviour. J. Yaniv's behaviour, for instance, or the weird actions of some ex-partners on the trans-widows threads, or the actions of those who campaign against single-sex spaces and then turn out to have a criminal underbelly.

I hate what's happened to my young relative. I hate what that's done to her bewildered wider family. I really hate the thought that she'll one day realise that she has damaged her health and fertility in pursuit of an impossible goal.

I don't think there is general 'hate for trans sake', if you see what I mean.

Women, unfortunately, are not immune to intimidating other women in bathroom facilities either - you just need to check out the gay clubs to see evidence of that. I'm certain I am not alone amongst gay woman in having been followed by other women to toilets on a night out in the expectation of something more. Thankfully most of the gay clubs have attendants now which probably helps address this.

TW - we can’t use male facilities we are at risk in them.
TW - Everyone who identifies as a woman must be able to use female facilities, you can’t police it.

I don’t understand how the second point doesn’t rather screw up the first one. It’s not the sign on the door that makes the women’s facility less risky, it’s who isn’t in it.

I just came back to ask the same question as Winesalot.

It would be really interesting to know where you formed the idea that Mumsnet is full of trans hate threads.

I believe this is a common misconception/misrepresentation on other forums and platforms. Also sometimes trolls have been known to post hateful comments and take screenshots to 'prove' the transphobia here because they can't find any of it displayed in genuine posts.