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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can white women be allies to BME women?

588 replies

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 03:18

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

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OvaHere · 02/07/2020 10:58

The only black women (or men) I know are of the virtual kind - by that I mean on the internet.

That looks awful written down but it's true. I live in the North of England in a predominantly white area, the largest BME community here is asian (muslim).

I have known quite a number of muslim women on a personal level over the last 30 years but very few black women in that time and currently none at all.

So whilst I read articles and twitter posts, things on MN, sign petitions etc...really it's very theoretical for me.

I don't feel like I have much in the way of power to effect structural change - I'm a SAHM and carer at the moment. The only thing I can think of in practical terms is to try and encourage black women to join our real life feminist group to gain wider perspectives. Currently the group is (mostly) white and asian.

Justhadathought · 02/07/2020 11:01

Why do you think white women in power should behave differently to white men in power? If so, then why and in what way

Power always has the potential to corrupt, no matter which group has it. The world over. There are seriously corrupted governments the world over, and with some real monsters on the board.

hoodathunkit · 02/07/2020 11:02

very quickly

The removal of bad energy and blockages (a common activity of Durek and of many other similar sharlatans) is a con trick is described beautifully here by the amazing Bob Nygaard whose life mission is to expose psychic scammers

A youtube search for "Bob Nygaard" will bring up some interesting videos.

MorrisZapp · 02/07/2020 11:05

Totally agree, Wondersense. There are glaring issues needing the attention of feminism all around me here in white-ish Central Scotland.

None of them involve race but if there is a race based issue that feminism could address round here I'd genuinely like to help.

BusyProcrastinator · 02/07/2020 11:13

Hi @missyoumuch

I agree with you. Too many responses are basically “not all men”, but for white women, sadly. White women need to do more to include and centre BAME women. I do find lots of feminist organisations are making an effort , eg Filia. They are massive advocates of people like Hibo Wardere and Southall Black Sisters. But the fact is that BAME women are seriously underrepresented and we need to fix that.

At the same time, I understand the defensiveness to a degree. We are at a time when “white feminism” is used as a woke misogynist slur, akin to “Karen”, and a shorthand for shutting up women. Yes, white women have white privilege but it’s used as a technique by men trying to silence us.

Still, the main point is that we need to do more and not be defensive. At the moment, I’m looking to mentor a BAME woman at work and have sponsored my BAME employees to do a leadership programme. I’d welcome suggestions around more things to do (while also reading up on my own).

Bluebooby · 02/07/2020 11:14

I don't call myself a feminist anymore because I don't think I fit in properly and I feel a bit uncomfortable with it, but I support women and I would say my main focus is for working class and poorer women of all skin colours and nationalitys.

Metoo was a big movement for women and I've been raped, abused and harrassed but didn't feel like it was for me. I feel like main feminism is pretty middle to upper class and is mostly white. I don't think that means they look down on working class or are racist, though some do and are, it's just how it is because it's easier for them to have a louder voice. I think many feminist women try to use their voice to help those who need it, but they are coloured by their own experience as we all are. I try to financially support smaller initiatives and movements that are more close to my beliefs and to support them by petitions and retweets etc. The next time I can afford to donate it will be to Sistah Space, the time before it was Transgender Trend. I think long and hard before I choose someone to donate to because I can't afford much. With BLM I think they have achieved some good things like a greater awareness of police brutality to black men which will hopefully lead to positive changes in that. Also I didn't know about the confederate flag before BLM and now it's finally being removed that seems like a good change to me. I support the campaign for justice for Breonna Taylor and think BLM have really helped bring her story to light. I haven't donated to BLM because I don't agree with much of what I read on their website, but I very, very much believe black lives matter and I hope one day that will go without saying.

Where I live now is a mainly white area and mainly more middle class, and my face to face experience with BLM here has not been positive as it was taken over by one (she was white) woman who has always lived here, is from a wealthy family and who has read some books as she kept telling us. She was patronising and every concern or question from the mainly older local community, who genuinely mostly seemed to want to support the cause and who seemed horrified by some of the experiences of black people that they'd heard about, was labelled white supremacy and she ranted about them on twitter in a very nasty way and said how tired she was of fighting this battled and that got her a lot of sympathy. I don't take her as representing the entire BLM movement at all but she is the type of "white feminist" that I personally dislike because she refused to see further than her own nose and she talked over everyone including even black people who she was supposedly fighting for. She was eventually shut down by a man (who was mixed race) and who helped to bring everyone together to see that most of them were arguing for the same things, and I don't think she liked that but it helped bring people back on focus. I think in my old area which is working class and the majority of the population is from a BAME background, with a much higher proportion of black people than where I am now, my experience would have been a lot different.

Overall, I think most people, including most feminists, are just trying their best. And they have their blind spots but I think that's human nature. I have seen the triggernometry interview shared above and follow Ayishat on twitter and think she is lovely. I loved her interview most of all because it reminded me that behind every angry rant I see online there is a person and most of us are trying to do what we think is right, even if we disagree on what that is. I can be too quick to judge things as illogical and I'm trying to teach myself to step back for a moment and think about what's in a person's heart because I react.

Bluebooby · 02/07/2020 11:17

Before I react* and many other typos and bad spelling and grammar, sorry.

ValancyRedfern · 02/07/2020 11:22

I agree op this is an issue. I'm always shocked on FWR when race comes up as it's the one occasion where I don't see eye to eye with posters I otherwise normally agree with. 'White feminism' is often leveraged by white men to attack white women, but that doesn't mean white feminists having a blind spot about race can't also be true.

ValancyRedfern · 02/07/2020 11:23

There's a seminal book by black female academics called (paraphrased from memory) 'All the blacks are men and all the women are white, but some of us are brave'. Which I think sums up very neatly the bind black women find themselves in.

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 11:25

@Bluebooby thanks for sharing. Interesting to learn that there are potentially class exclusionary elements to feminism as well.

Certainly a major criticism of the feminist movement that began in the late 20th century is that middle class white women have been far and away the main beneficiaries. I assumed that was due to men in power feel most comfortable with that group. And not necessarily that the movement itself wasn’t considering working class women.

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missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 11:26

@ValancyRedfern

There's a seminal book by black female academics called (paraphrased from memory) 'All the blacks are men and all the women are white, but some of us are brave'. Which I think sums up very neatly the bind black women find themselves in.
I’ll look for that one! My go to book on this issue is bell hooks “Ain’t I a Woman?”
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Bluebooby · 02/07/2020 11:29

I forgot to say I don't call myself an ally to anyone and don't expect anyone to call themselves an ally to me. I know that pisses people off. It doesn't mean I don't support things or don't want to receive support. I dislike the terms male allies and disablity allies as well. (I am a disabled woman). The only kind of allies I like are in the war games I play.

BelleHathor · 02/07/2020 11:29

some of the ways in which BME women's (and men's) struggles have been appropriated and astroturfed by cults, criminals and other sinister forces This right here, I am a black woman who supports the statement "Black lives matter" but I do not support the organisation BLM. A marxist organisation centering Trans and "defunding the police" the resulting problems (increase in crime etc.) which will inevitably fall on Black womens shoulders (who are more likely to live in deprived areas) to carry. I am tired of certain groups whose agenda is to weaponize the emotional pain of history to activate certain groups all in the pursuit of power for themselves. Especially when those in power control cities like Chicago where 63 people (mostly black) were shot at the weekend with 16 fatalities (including Children).

PurpleHoodie · 02/07/2020 11:33

Kazza2867

Mumsnet really is not a safe space for black women to talk about their experiences.

This is absolute Billy bullshit actually.

Aesopfable · 02/07/2020 11:33

I suspect in some areas people don’t appreciate how ‘white’ the uk is. The white Indigenous population is still by far the vast majority of the country. So people may complain about under-representation of BAME on, for example, the BBC when they are proportionately represented for the country as a whole because it doesn’t chime with their community. Of course that doesn’t help if you are a young BAME girl looking for a role model.

merrymouse · 02/07/2020 11:34

"defunding the police" is supposed to mean increase funding for 'civilian' organisations like social services, to ensure that root causes of social problems are tackled and, particularly in America, the first person to be called to a situation isn't someone with a gun.

However, a slogan that requires 40 words of explanation, probably isn't a good slogan.

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 11:35

@Bluebooby I agree with a lot of your points.

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 11:36

Not to derail my own thread but...since when has capitalism been so great for women or blacks people? Didn’t realise the feminism sub on MN is so pro-market.

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PurpleHoodie · 02/07/2020 11:37

OvaHere

I don't feel like I have much in the way of power to effect structural change - I'm a SAHM and carer at the moment. The only thing I can think of in practical terms is to try and encourage black women to join our real life feminist group to gain wider perspectives. Currently the group is (mostly) white and asian.

I'm not the same as you, but this is a very good suggestion. Women meeting up in person away from men (as well as online) is a very good idea.

Things 'get done'. Women all all hues n creeds find they have more in common than not.

There's always food involved. This is all a good thing Flowers

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 11:39

@PurpleHoodie

Kazza2867

Mumsnet really is not a safe space for black women to talk about their experiences.

This is absolute Billy bullshit actually.

Can you explain why it’s bullshit?
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MoltenLasagne · 02/07/2020 11:47

Not to derail my own thread but...since when has capitalism been so great for women or blacks people? Didn’t realise the feminism sub on MN is so pro-market.

I'm wc and the only people I hear talking about abolishing capitalism are mc people who dont know what it's like to have no food for tomorrow and who have enough resources to think you can wipe out a system and have anarchy and things will be fine. Its naivety and ignorance at how bad things can get. Does anyone realistically think that getting rid of capitalism will mean the billionaires will give up the resources they're hoarding? Of course not- it will just mean those of us with no power (especially physically so women) will be even more at the mercy of the charity of the powerful.

PurpleHoodie · 02/07/2020 11:47

missyoumuch

I can. Not now. I have wifework to go and do.

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/07/2020 11:48

@missyoumuch

Not to derail my own thread but...since when has capitalism been so great for women or blacks people? Didn’t realise the feminism sub on MN is so pro-market.
Quite a lot of women and black people are perfectly fine with capitalism. Not everyone finds left wing ideology appealing.

Feminism is a very broad church and people can support women's rights without agreeing to a specific political angle. We have quite a few women here who are politically on the right or centrist and have very interesting perspectives and opinions. It's why I enjoy this board because it includes women from all backgrounds and they don't always agree with one another. Makes for much balanced and nuanced discussions.

CheeryTreeBlossom · 02/07/2020 11:50

On the BAME terminology, I fall into the category and dislike the grouping as "everyone not indigenous white" which seems to imply the racism they face is the same.
I am not black and in fact to most people I would probably be mistaken for someone of Spanish/Mediterranean descent. Living in London I can probably count on one hand the racist incidents I have faced, and that is definitely not the experience of most black women.
The racism experienced by different groups within BAME has different focuses, but primarily it is an othering Vs white and to that extent this labelling doesn't seem helpful.
In terms of representation I work in the city and my direct team has fewer white women than BAME women, but no black women (or men!). So for our organisation it can tick boxes and say BAME representation is fine, but that's not an accurate portrayal and doesn't help confront the structural issues. However most of it happens even before hiring. Similar to what verybritishproblems highlighted, we don't even get the candidates, so we can't hire them.

MoltenLasagne · 02/07/2020 11:51

To add- I think this kind of pie in the sky thinking is why so many working class people distrust Labour. Its full of idealists who talk about revolution because they dreamt about it when at private school. The women I know, of all races, want to hear about tangible fixes for tomorrow, not how we work towards a perfect future.