Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

@Gwynfluff

Re doxxing of Pragna Patel

It was actually targeting of a female MP for supporting an event with Pragna in, on the basis that Pragna has spoken at a WPUK event.

Text from Julie Bindel’s tweet is below:

‘I have worked & campaigned alongside the formidable
@SBSisters
@ Pragna Patel since 1990. SBS holds the police & other state agents to account and are the best feminists and human rights activists imaginable.
@CatherineWest1 is my MP & I applaud her for supporting the event.’

Thanks for clarifying that Gwynfluff.

I think that you can recognise that racism exists and be a feminist without having to pick a side.
It just seems an excuse to divide and conquer.

A really thought-provoking thread thanks OP.
I have only recently read Renni Eddo-Lodge's book WINLTTWPAR and found her points about white feminism really challenging. And the phrase 'white feminism' in general.
But it really helped me understand different perspectives, so that when I read a thread like this, whilst most of the time my brain is whirring trying to process all the different perspectives and what I truly feel, the thing that leaps out at me is the defensiveness and the hurt that people might consider white feminists racist; whilst we at the same time heartily agree that our society is structurally racist, we don't think that can apply to US.
#notallwhitewomen indeed...

The term 'Ally' allows you to disregard the experiences of Diane Abbott, or Priti Patel, depending on your political views.

Equality is only achieved when people fight to protect the rights of people who aren't their allies.

Equality is only achieved when people fight to protect the rights of people who aren't their allies.

Well Said!

I live in Scotland and my job doesn't involve hiring or promoting anyone, in fact I have one colleague.

The only thing I can do to be an ally to black women is to read a book and nod. How can anyone tell if I've read a book? They can't.

White feminism is a sexist, toxic concept used to blame women as usual. We're meant to sort everyone else out before we address our own oppression. No other social justice movement is expected to do this.

Are you really using the Daily Mail, a tabloid known to lie and s--t-stir?

The Mail is a news source I have ambivalent feelings about, just like Marxism, capitalism, BLM and many other things.

On the minus side they publish a lot of stuff I don't agree with and that's putting it mildly, also a lot of sexist stuff about this or that young woman "flouting her curves" and having "wardrobe malfunctions".

On the other hand sometimes they do really good stuff. For example they were brilliant on the Stephen Lawrence murder and helping to bring the murderers to account. They have also been excellent on campaigning against gambling, a subject I have strong feelings about, about the Orwellian insanity of the extremes of the TRA movement and of cults.

Also, have you actually looked into Shaman Durek or just taking the DM at its word?

Of course I have looked into "Shaman" (lol) Durek

He and the various other Rasputlin like / lite figures are central to my interests.

Let's have an exploration of "Shaman" Durek shall we?

He would make a very good example of someone we can look at to make sense of the astroturfing that is happening right now.

Any interested readers can check out his website here:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200619203052/shamandurek.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200619203052/shamandurek.com/

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200605043220/shamandurek.com/about/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200605043220/shamandurek.com/about/

His facebook page is here (ther are others)

www.facebook.com/ShamanDurek

but possibly the best place to start could be this video from This Morning in which Durek gets Eamonn Holmes to void his "negative energy"

This voiding and purging of "negative energy" via self proclaimed "shamans" / psychics, body psychotherapists, and various other quacks, mountebanks and new age charlatans is central to my interests.

We can see this attempt to purge and void badness happening in various relvolutionary movements. This is something that is worthy of further thought and reflection.

Now, from where I stand, if someone claims that they can cure people of illness and "blockages" through communications with spirits and supernatural entities it is up to them to prove that they can do this, not up to me to prove that they cannot. This is just rational.

Believing that someone can purge or cleanse people of "bad energy" is a long term scam used by con men and fake psychics since time immemorial.

It is a central part of the human condition to want to occupy a safe / good space and to wish to void "badness" from the self and the good space. This unconscious preoccuptaion is highly relevant to racism and to genocide and other atrocities.

I have to go right now but I would be very happy to post more about this.

Equality is only achieved when people fight to protect the rights of people who aren't their allies.

That's a great way to phrase it.

FWIW I understand that there are real shamans, real medicine men and women and real healers.

How do you tell them apart from the fakes?

The real oneslive in their communities, know their communities sacred songs (the songs and ceremonies take decades to learn) and languages, serve their communities and heal their communiteis.

They very often live in poverty, some take vows of poverty, they are less concerned about making money and more concerned about taking care of their people.

All the ones with significant social media and online presence running shamanism training courses, charinging $$$$ and providing services to rich white people are fake.

The only thing I can do to be an ally to black women is to read a book and nod. How can anyone tell if I've read a book? They can't.

Come on get with the programme - nobody can tell if you read a book, but the important thing is to post a picture on instagram (hygge accessories in winter, beach body photo in summer) and talk about 'learning', as though it was impossible for any white person to notice racism until 25th May 2020. Then you can be an 'ally'.

(Sorry for rant - I have a real problem with 'ally').

How many of the white women who get selected for corporate boards use their positions to create opportunities for BAME women? So many times they choose white female protégés and pat themselves on the back doe breaking the glass ceiling.

I have seen this happen over and over in my workplace, not just with white women but with all senior people bringing up people who remind them of themselves, whether that's the right school, being female, being Asian etc.

When I started my career in one branch of the organisation the structure meant that at level 5 (the lowest), there was about 80% women and around half the workforce were South Asian. By the time you got to level 3 it was half men, with a couple of Asian men but no Asian women. The top man was a very posh white man who was literally nothing like the level 5 workers.

He was replaced by a woman who implemented a strict career ladder system that meant anyone hitting targets was automatically included in promotion considerations without needing to put themselves forward. She made the first recruitment stage anonymous and also put in safeguards on working hours so women knew they'd be able to keep their flexibility if they got promoted. These were all things that she put in place as feminist principles. She also replaced formal qualification requirements with internal standards because she came from a working class background and valued working up. It resulted in a lot of S.A. women who had joined straight after school getting promoted.

The reason I'm telling this story is that this woman did what our organisation claims to want to do - promoted diversity (and also increased moral) - however not a single other department has followed suit. Managers do not want to give up the ability to pick their own hires, they claim that it's not possible to have the needed flexibility in their departments, they think it penalises the ambitious and they claim qualifications are more important in their area. They promote the one extremely elite BAME man (who coincidentally went to private school) and think that's job done. They address one facet (race, sex, class) and then are surprised they only get variations on the posh white man (posh black men, posh white women, working class white men).

It's possible to agree with "black lives matter" as a principle while disagreeing with some of the aims of BLM the movement.

Also, the conversation in Britain gets distorted by a focus on the USA. We end up talking about issues very pertinent in the USA but less so here (for example, police shootings). This can lure us into a sense of smugness ("well at least we're not visibly murdering black people on a regular basis") while ignoring the issues in front of us. Why are health outcomes so much worse for pregnant black women, for example?

@merrymouse

The only thing I can do to be an ally to black women is to read a book and nod. How can anyone tell if I've read a book? They can't.

Come on get with the programme - nobody can tell if you read a book, but the important thing is to post a picture on instagram (hygge accessories in winter, beach body photo in summer) and talk about 'learning', as though it was impossible for any white person to notice racism until 25th May 2020. Then you can be an 'ally'.

(Sorry for rant - I have a real problem with 'ally').

THIS. This is my duty. To share my learning with my social media followers, all of whom are white and anti racist. Likes and clicks for all!

As far as I can see the only way an individual can change anything, is to treat people and respond to them on the basis of their character and their behaviour; & ( positively) on the basis of their skills and talents; and not on colour of their skin, or their sex. And in the contemporary West, certainly, I imagine we've come as far as we can, in terms of equality laws. Equality cannot be imposed. Equality of outcome will always depend on the priorities, choices & cultural or moral values of any one individual or community within the larger society,

However, as long as there are differences between people, there will always be a sub-set of people who will be abusive on account of personal differences. There will always be people who pick on others and single them out for bullying based on their particular characteristics. Which is why we'll never entirely be rid of sexism, or racism, or disabled'ism or any other ism'.

That doesn't mean we should stand back and tolerate those sorts of behaviours or treatments of others when we come across them. They should be called out when seen.That is the basis of a healthy & functioning moral code - which every society requires in order to be cohesive.

As a percentage of the general population, I wonder how many white women are currently working at board room level in the UK? And why they are tasked with fixing racism particularly? Men have dominated board rooms since corporate culture began. What are they doing, specifically, to address racism? I'm sure we all hold men to the same exacting standards of allyship.

The term 'Ally' allows you to disregard the experiences of Diane Abbott, or Priti Patel, depending on your political views

Equality is only achieved when people fight to protect the rights of people who aren't their allies

I think this is a really important point. Allyship relies upon the idea that all "BAME" women have identical views. Or if they disagree their views must be incorrect.

The OP said that It feels like white women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities

Does the OP recognise that BME women have multiple points of view? And that some feminists might be listening to women whose views differ from the OPs own views? I mean there are posters on this very thread (yinnybun, xxyzz and verybritishproblems) that have said that they are from ethnic backgrounds and are not comfortable with the ideas set out in the OP. Can I not listen to those women and support those ideas? Allyship seems to rely on a person supporting a very specific set of ideas / politics. I'm not sure how this can be a good thing.

I think this is a really important point. Allyship relies upon the idea that all "BAME" women have identical views. Or if they disagree their views must be incorrect.

I agree & think this gets lost

I’m speaking for myself @Signalbox. Don’t put words in my mouth. I have a black American relative who voted for Trump so don’t lecture to me that I’m unaware minorities have a range of views.

@MorrisZapp I’m refusing to give white women in power a pass for not fighting racism because sexism also exists.

Can I add that not all women, or even all women who call themselves feminists, occupy the fixed position of calling out 'Male privilege'. Or envisioning the world in terms of a life long battle of the sexes, in which men ( as a group) always get to be the baddie; and where women get to occupy the eternal position of victimised moral righteousness.

Feminism, and the women's movement before that, is not necessarily a fixed or unchanging set of dogmas or articles of faith which must be adhered to; that is when feminism becomes just as bad as any other form of rigid inter-sectionalist thinking, in my view.

Women, as a group, have come a long way since even my childhood, and now occupy positions and roles, and have freedoms, legal and civil rights that were just not there in my youth. Certainly in most western liberal democracies.

Once you get to the point of legal equality, then differences, once again, come to the fore. Uniformity is not the goal. People will make different choices based on their values, their goals, the values of their wider community, and so on.

I’m speaking for myself @Signalbox. Don’t put words in my mouth

I didn't put words into your mouth, I asked you a question.

Why do you think white women in power should behave differently to white men in power? If so, then why and in what way?

We are privileged because of our race. If you live in the Western world generally, you are privlidged too, but it doesn't mean life is easy, or that there aren't complexities. Maybe not ones as serious as the BAME one, but they're there.

For example, in a country as class orientated as England, how many working class people do think reach the highest positions in politics, in business? Not many. In the 'enlightened' newspaper of the Guardian, a ridiculously high percentage of their journalists or staff have been to private school, so hypocrisy is rife over there. Have you ever seen how Geordies are depicted in the Daily Mail? A newspaper who likes to rejoice in depicting every drunk night out in Newcastle whenever they can.

Have you heard or seen the vile, ignorant, offensive comments levelled towards Welsh people? How we're accused of being 'anti-English' or racist against English people for wanting more independence or daring to speaking our own native language, even in Wales? The media isn't interested in the North because we don't fit a cute but regressive stereotype. They would rather focus on the Valleys in South Wales because the dim, bronze tanned boyos & bimbos make good TV for English audiences who then lap it up and think that all of Wales is like that.

My first memory of an English tourist in my area was when I was in my mid-teens, when a man, angry that my flustered mum wouldn't reverse quickly enough to make room for him and his boat, opened his landrover window shouted 'Welsh c**t' as he went past us. I have seen similar aggression since (not that bad though) and offensive things have been said to my face that they wouldn't dare say to anyone else.

Anyway, I digress.

''On MN there are hundreds of posts about what many in society consider niche issues (eg trans rights) but race and ethnicity topics are rarely taken seriously. And posters who talk about racism are attacked frequently here. Yet it’s a safe space to talk about feminism when race is excluded from the conversation.''

The trans issue is definitely not a niche issue. It affects ALL women. That's a lot of people!! There is a perception that it's up to feminists to solve ALL problems. It's an endless brigade of 'whataboutery'. What about race? Don't you care about racism? What about the environment? Isn't that important too? We're supposed to care and solve absolutely everything, and of we don't we're demonised as uncaring bitches.

Racism is a separate issue from sex discrimination. Racism affects a lot of women, but not all women like trans ideology does. That's doesn't make racism not important, but you won't see issues lije that represented with the same frequency. I sympathise if you feel the lack of support, but we can't MAKE or force ethnic minorities to join feminist groups. It's not our fault that BAME women are underrepresented in your own networks. You might not have meant to be accusatory over this, but it feels like people expect feminists to solve every problem.

Considering that non-white people are a minority in the U.K, especially outside of the London where the picture is different, you simply aren't going to see as many threads focusing on these issues as you are on others. Statistically, it would be odd if you did.

I'm sure we all hold men to the same exacting standards of allyship

I don't expect anything of an individual based purely on their 'belonging' to any particular group. How can you realistically expect that. We are all individuals.

My best hope that anyone will behave in a decent way based on the fact of their being human beings of potential for 'good' or moral behaviour. I'm often disappointed. This is life. the best We can do is to raise our own personal standards of conduct.

We are privileged because of our race. If you live in the Western world generally, you are privlidged too

If you hold the 'western world' up as being superior in some way, then, yes anyone living in a western democracy is relatively privileged. And that is because the western world is largely comprised of socially democratic, liberal societies with equal legal and civil rights for all.....and with governments which are relatively uncorrupted compared to other societies.