Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

It's always worth listening to a diverse range of voices on these topics.

unherd.com/2020/06/minority-women-can-think-for-themselves/

youtu.be/TuAd_IAkOl4 - highly recommend this one!

youtu.be/mT2rlJe9cuU

youtu.be/rzOApVTfT48

@MoltenLasagne

Not to derail my own thread but...since when has capitalism been so great for women or blacks people? Didn’t realise the feminism sub on MN is so pro-market.

I'm wc and the only people I hear talking about abolishing capitalism are mc people who dont know what it's like to have no food for tomorrow and who have enough resources to think you can wipe out a system and have anarchy and things will be fine. Its naivety and ignorance at how bad things can get. Does anyone realistically think that getting rid of capitalism will mean the billionaires will give up the resources they're hoarding? Of course not- it will just mean those of us with no power (especially physically so women) will be even more at the mercy of the charity of the powerful.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

missyoumuch

I think you need to Bob over to this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Alison Bailey is an incredibly brave black lesbian women who is receiving astounding support on here as well as twitter.

If you hang around long enough on the fem boards you will start to see prominent black women who are actually very prominent with in the women’s rights fights.

I thought you were an investment banker @missyoumuch. Surely you're a massive fan of capitalism?

😆

Do you think maybe it takes "extreme" movements to open doors? I am aware of issues with BLM, same as with metoo, same as with Extinction Rebellion, but I wonder if they're like a battering ram opening a door and maybe that's what's needed to enact change? But then I think back to the "collateral damage" which are usually just normal people trying to get on with their lives and I can't support that. Then I think of battles that have been going on for a long time, with people trying to fight their corner using the "correct channels" and getting no response at all and just how frustrating and disheartening that is. People need to be heard without having to resort to extreme measures but sometimes they're just not and I don't know how we change that.

Not to derail my own thread but...since when has capitalism been so great for women or blacks people? Didn’t realise the feminism sub on MN is so pro-market.

Mumsnet is a company funded by advertising that allows people to exchange information. Its entire existence depends on traditional free market entrepreneurship.

Feminism is a very broad church and people can support women's rights without agreeing to a specific political angle.

I agree with you Nonny and how that plays out is partly what makes it so interesting (and frustrating sometimes) and what that means for different groups of women.

@Clymene I haven’t said I’m anti-capitalism.

But love the personal attention to divert from difficult topics. Does give some people a headache I suppose.

@EveleftEden I’ll read it now

Mumsnet really is not a safe space for black women to talk about their experiences

Tbh at times it’s not a safe space for anyone now the site has got so big.

The daily fail has brought over all sorts of idiots

@evelefteden re: Allison Bailey. The thread is really long but I see a blank woman talking about a non-racial feminist issue. You’re saying the fact that she’s being supported is evidence that block women are valued in the feminist movement?

My opinion is that black women who avoid the intersection between race and sex are quite warmly embraced by their white sisters. But when racism is raised...not as much.

Am I missing something?

[quote missyoumuch]@EveleftEden I’ll read it now[/quote]
Make sure you sit down with a cup of tea it makes for alarming reading.

*black woman not blank! Autocorrect.

But love the personal attention to divert from difficult topics. Does give some people a headache I suppose.

Surely that's a bit unfair after the screen shot you posted which mentioned anti capitalism & you asked the below

since when has capitalism been so great for women or blacks people? Didn’t realise the feminism sub on MN is so pro-market.

What are your views on capitalism?

Just to offer a different perspective. My DH is black and works for one of the largest tech companies in the world. The BAME work network is very heavily female orientated. There are a far fewer number of black male employees than female. In almost all cases the spokespeople for black community are women.

I personally believe that white women often don't incorporate black womens experiences into the feminist narrative.

I think capitalism in its current form needs to be radically reformed. It has a fallacy at its core which is that those who work hard and compete will be rewarded. But those in charge - mainly white men but white people in general as partners and families are also complicit - create barriers to other groups and then make those group members out to be inferior.

You actually have people in Europe, North America etc who believe that the reason top companies are run by mainly white men is because they’re the best at it.

As a black woman who has worked alongside some of these “business geniuses” I call bullshit.

I think the treatment of Allison Bailey shows that the community found in tribal division into ‘allies’ and ‘siblings’ is more important to many people than the end goal - equality.

I suspect it’s true that she would not have had the support she has received if her case had only been about race, but then she might not have had her crowd funder pulled if it wasn’t about feminism.

Fundamentally she loses both ways.

I personally believe that white women often don't incorporate black womens experiences into the feminist narrative
I agree. But I don't know how to incorporate black womens experiences, as they arent the same as mine and I don't know any black women well enough to ask.

I feel like I need to hear more experiences and more specifics about what black women need in feminism to be able to help.

What I found really interesting was that a lot of the arguments against OP have been things that we'd quickly shut down if it they were used against feminism.

Not all white women... not all men
This isn't a problem.
If it's a problem it's not that bad.
What about...
I've never seen this/encountered it..
What about black women that say the opposite or don't feel oppressed... similar to the happy prostitute myth, wolf whistling is a compliment etc.
I,personally don't do this ... I'm a good guy or not my Nigel

And so on.

These comments are completely unacceptable and get shut down straight away when it comes to sexism, misogyny etc. so why are they the go to in a discussion about racism?

I think WW can be supportive of BW if we are prepared to put defensiveness aside and just LISTEN.

I’m white and reasonably well educated, comfortable financially. I will be listened to, I have some social standing. I have the ear of white men to a degree as I’m more likely to be married to one and I definitely have white male relatives. As a mother I have far more influence than my DH over what my daughter thinks, watches and consumes, her toys and books because I’m more likely to be the primary carer. In fact I choose ALL her books and toys so for instance there ARE things you can do (buy fromBME female owned business, buy dolls/toys that aren’t pandering to the Euro centric beauty ideal, buy books which feature BME girls as the main character...)

So to me it is using what advantages we do have.

Mumsnet really is not a safe space

What people normally mean when they say ‘safe spaces’ is they want a space where they will not face criticism, or have to cope with different opinions and their opinions questioned. A space where they won’t be told they are wrong or have to justify themselves. In other words an echo chamber. They might feel ‘safe’ but they are anything but. Such spaces are dangerous for everyone.

Mumsnet is not, never has been and never tries to be a ‘safe space’.

I don’t mind criticism.

But it’s obvious to anyone who isn’t prejudiced that discussions of anti-BAME racism are routinely attacked on MN. Any time a poster suggests something was a result of racism, people pile in to tell her she’s wrong.

I’ve been on here a few years (with different usernames) and it’s been very consistent.

MN doesn’t have to be a safe space but I posted this to let the record speak for itself. I’m in a few other majority white mothers forums and people share experiences of racism without much hostility from other users. MN is a different story.

For a site that has so much traffic related to feminism, its blindness on racism stands out.

@Siameasy thanks.