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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can white women be allies to BME women?

588 replies

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 03:18

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

OP posts:
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NonnyMouse1337 · 02/07/2020 08:32

The recent doxxing of Pragna Patel of Southall Black Sisters has also been weighing on me.

Oh! I hadn't heard about this. I like Pragna Patel from the few times I've heard her speak. Is there more info about this anywhere?

I've been really disgusted with the recent hostility and attacks against the FGM campaigners.

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 08:36

I was the one who mentioned Romanian women. My understanding is they are classed as white however as I said upthread I'm mixed. I feel like I have had more privilege than eastern European women

merrymouse · 02/07/2020 08:37

Can white women be allies to BME women?

I think your question is very odd.

Whether or not you think white women should or shouldn't be 'allies', (I don't like the word 'allies' in this context - human rights law applies to everyone, regardless of whether they are your 'ally') the phrasing of your question assumes that white women, and specifically feminists are incapable of observing other kinds of prejudice, which is clearly not true.

Reading between the lines, the phrasing of your question implies that white feminists should pay more attention to other forms of prejudice and that they should take more action to fight other forms of prejudice. However, the combative way that you have phrased it invites disagreement, which isn't helpful.

teawamutu · 02/07/2020 08:38

[quote missyoumuch]@MacaroonMama

I remember as a young feminist thinking 'But all our struggles as women are the same' - I even wondered if it was racist to assume that black women's struggles were different to mine. Does that make sense? I was brought up to be colour-blind - well-intentioned of course, but not helpful, as I know now that different women face different challenges.

I’d never considered this before. Thought provoking.[/quote]
DH and I (both white) have been having lots of conversations along these lines lately.

We're almost paralysed because although we want to talk about this, we've spent our lives being told to be colour-blind and feeling like 'noticing' race is itself racist.

Both then said this to BAME colleagues and we're having better and more open conversations now.

(I'm not asking for sympathy in any way BTW - it's my hangup to overcome. But definitely a factor.)

Signalbox · 02/07/2020 08:40

Can white women be allies to BME women?

I’m angry at how white women are behaving

I've seen various lists on the internet telling white people how they should behave around black people and they are very bizarre. The only person who gets to decide how I behave is me and if that means I cannot be an ally then so be it.

Has anyone watched the Triggernometry interview with Ayishat Akanbi. She talks a lot of sense.

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 08:40

posted too soon. I was raised in a very diverse part of London so appreciate my experience of racism is different to others.

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/07/2020 08:41

@yinnybun

I was the one who mentioned Romanian women. My understanding is they are classed as white however as I said upthread I'm mixed. I feel like I have had more privilege than eastern European women
Yes, and the poster BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup claimed that because Romanians are "white" they are not considered to be BAME (and therefore implying they do not face discrimination or their issues are not as important as BAME ones). And I asked them what they think BAME stands for then.
QuentinWinters · 02/07/2020 08:42

I'm getting more uncomfortable with BAME as a term. It feels like essentially saying "non-white" and lumping together an extremely diverse set of people. I'm white tho so might be missing the mark.

op I've been here years and seen some really nuanced debate about black feminism, I've learnt a lot. I think you are lumping "feminists" and "women" together and expecting feminists to sort out problems caused by white women generally. In my experience lots of the more powerful white women at work reject feminism. It would be hard for me to influence them - although I do try Grin

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/07/2020 08:43

Thanks for speaking up verybritishproblems. I'm a South Asian woman and I feel the same way.

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/07/2020 08:47

Signalbox the interview with Ayishat Akanbi was really good!! I hope her voice gets more mainstream airtime in future.

I enjoyed reading / listening to these perspectives as well.

unherd.com/2020/06/minority-women-can-think-for-themselves/

youtu.be/mT2rlJe9cuU

youtu.be/rzOApVTfT48

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 08:50

In my experience lots of the more powerful white women at work reject feminism.

That's a good point.

QuentinWinters · 02/07/2020 08:50

However, the combative way that you have phrased it invites disagreement, which isn't helpful.
This is actually proving ops point. This is what men say about us man hating feminists. It is quite combative, which made me feel uncomfortable, but actually OP has a valid point and my discomfort is my problem. It's not up to her to manage my reactions to something she is angry about.

RomeoLikedCapuletGirls · 02/07/2020 08:51

BAME women could set up their own network, or challenge BAME men and get them to share the status and power in these networks with BAME women.

BLM was set up by three black women.

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 08:52

I'm getting more uncomfortable with BAME as a term. It feels like essentially saying "non-white" and lumping together an extremely diverse set of people. I'm white tho so might be missing the mark.

I can see this & often I get confused where the lines are drawn. There was a thread about Priti Patel recently about the Guardian cartoon. I argued that racism is racism regardless whether the person targeted is worthy or not but others thought differently.

hoodathunkit · 02/07/2020 08:52

BLM was set up by three black women

Do you mean BLM UK?

verybritishproblems · 02/07/2020 08:52

Thanks for speaking up verybritishproblems. I'm a South Asian woman and I feel the same way.

Smile I have been in so many meetings discussing diversity. How can we get more diverse people into the organisation, we are already spending more money this FY targeting schools with a high BAME intake. In fact in our last meeting it was decided by the powers that be that we wouldn’t do University fayres or the local private schools and we’d concentrate on the schools in the poorer areas. This isn’t right, we should be going to all schools. Why are we shutting out a part of society for what feels like a tick box exercise. It’s wrong and Im expected to agree as I’m BAME Confused

Siablue · 02/07/2020 08:54

If you look at who gets the most shit it is black women. Hibo Wadare gets so much abuse for speaking up about FGM from every possible angle.
There was a thread on here the other day about the Labour Party trying to de platform Pragma Patel.
Diane Abbot gets more abuse and hate mail than any politician. She is not allowed to open her own post anymore. Is she the one person in the whole of Parliament that deserves it ? Or is it because she is the first black female MP?
The penalty for speaking up is definitely worse for some people.

Look at the way some people (and by that I mean mainly left wing white men behave) they a very quick to drop all their pretence to have liberal values right away.

Gwynfluff · 02/07/2020 08:54

The vast majority of the population here is white. Why do people act surprised that therefore most groups and organisations and networks will be predominantly white?

80% white now. In some urban centres, where a lot of the U.K. population live, more 55:45 and many Universities in London, Birmingham etc have similar percentages for their student cohorts.

So it’s simplistic to say white peoples are the vast majority in all contexts. NHS is one of the UKs biggest employers- it’s is not vastly white.

Shayisgreat · 02/07/2020 08:54

I agree with you OP. It's unfair of white people to dictate what issues are important. If BAME women are pointing out injustices and inequalities they must be heard, acknowledged, and efforts need to be made to equalise the playing field.

As women we look to do that when we feel we have been discriminated against due to our sex and are outraged when the general population does not see it as an issue. How can we then pretend that another group of people oppressed for a different reason are not telling the truth. It's baffling to me.

Signalbox · 02/07/2020 08:58

Signalbox the interview with Ayishat Akanbi was really good!! I hope her voice gets more mainstream airtime in future

Fingers crossed. There definitely needs to be more diversity of opinion.
I'll check out those other links thanks :)

hoodathunkit · 02/07/2020 09:00

One of the problems that I have with diversity targets is that there is an industry of diversity consultants running leadership training, organisational change and life coaching / personal development courses and that industry is fairly sinister and linked to the New Thought movement.

They run women's / BAME/ "survivors" leadership and "empowerment" summits and global conferences, all promoting various dubious thought leaders with unusual qualifications, very often linked to Reiki, LGATs and cults.

It will take me a while to dig though my old files and post about this

Just because our current society is deeply flawed, sexist, racist and unequal does not mean that it would be improved by an infux of well meaning, brainwashed, useful idiots who promote the New Thought movement.

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/07/2020 09:06

BLM was set up by three black women.

The US or UK version? Are black women centred in BLM because three black women started it?

phoenixrosehere · 02/07/2020 09:08

There has been many threads on here where black women have raised issues about race/their experiences and they have been shouted down and the threads always ends up the same - BLM bashing, racial animosity. As a black woman, support goes both ways.How will things ever change when our voices are so often silenced. Mumsnet really is not a safe space for black women to talk about their experiences.

I agree. How can you expect BAME to raise issues more when they’re constantly silenced, dismissed, or told their experiences are wrong and so and so isn’t racism. I’ve lived in the US and I live in the UK and what I noticed living here very quickly was the covert racism and xenophobia. It’s so polite that few would believe or see it as racist because too many people see racism to be in your face and someone shouting racist slurs. Covert racism is even worse imo than overt racism because it’s easier to dismiss.

I’ve had several instances of dealing with it but if I said how and what was said, it would get easily dismissed. I received it most often from mainly older middle class women or someone who is older than me. I’ve had instances at work, instances shopping, instances during both of my pregnancies from actual medical professionals (it resulting in injury with my oldest which didn’t appear until years later). I told my experience dealing with it during my birth and I was not only dismissed but excuses were made for why the doctors did it even though it was proven by the hospital that they were completely in the wrong, protocols were broken, and a doctor was pushed to resign and was told I was blaming the NHS. Why speak out when you endure one of the most traumatic experiences in your life and people want to dismiss it.

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 09:09

@Siablue

If you look at who gets the most shit it is black women. Hibo Wadare gets so much abuse for speaking up about FGM from every possible angle. There was a thread on here the other day about the Labour Party trying to de platform Pragma Patel. Diane Abbot gets more abuse and hate mail than any politician. She is not allowed to open her own post anymore. Is she the one person in the whole of Parliament that deserves it ? Or is it because she is the first black female MP? The penalty for speaking up is definitely worse for some people.

Look at the way some people (and by that I mean mainly left wing white men behave) they a very quick to drop all their pretence to have liberal values right away.

Dare I mention...Meghan Markle?
OP posts:
yinnybun · 02/07/2020 09:10

Watching the interview with Ayishat Akanbi now.

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