Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

BAME men have used this as a way to crush feminist movements within the community. “Oh feminism is a white thing, it’s not in your best interests” kind of thing...

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Can't have you going off and being liberated; wouldn't suit them.

BAME men have used this as a way to crush feminist movements within the community. “Oh feminism is a white thing, it’s not in your best interests” kind of thing.

Someone needs to tell these men to fuck off then. Preferably BAME women.

@Falleninwithabadcrowd Romanians are white Europeans, so no they aren't BAME.

In my eyes the first step in bridging that gap would be listening to women like OP and truly hearing them. Without dismissing, minimising, ridicule etc. Otherwise they'll become even more disenfranchised,disillusioned with feminism , feeling like they and their issues don't matter. Even worse some fear and distrust white women because they know they can and will turn on them.

You can't promote unity by pretending a problem doesn't exist.

@FantaOra there will be some. I know and met women on very senior positions who have and do post on MN.

Where is my home as a black woman? It seems like we get short shrift from everyone

Black feminists from Sojourner Truth to bell hooks, to Audre Lorde, to Kimberley Crenshaw, to Reni Eddo-Lodge are central to my feminism (I’m white). They’ve highlighted the intersection of oppression due to sex and oppression due to racialised identity for a couple of centuries. They’ve forged the more radical wing of feminism as it happens, which is often the section of feminism held up as being the epitome of white privilege.

Been pretty disheartened over the past few weeks to learn of the attacks 2 UK based women who campaign against FGM have been facing for naming women’s biology. The recent doxxing of Pragna Patel of Southall Black Sisters has also been weighing on me. Jana Cornel and Hibo Wadare are both worth checking out on Twitter. They need money for their organisations and Hibo has a book.

These are causes we can support.

Sisteroutrider and Marie Lagouste are also black radical feminists who powerful in their voice.

they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist

Have you ever heard anyone saying this?

I'm asking as someone who has witnessed racism countless times and witnessed white people denying racism countless times when they have been or are being racist.

I have never, ever heard a white woman saying that she cannot be racism because of her experience of sexism. I'm not saying that it has never happened, but I have never experienced this and cannot imagine that if a woman said this that it would not be called out quick time by other women.

I have witnessed white people, including women, jump through various hoops to try to deny their racism. One of the most ridiculous being "race doesn't exist - it is just a social construct, therefore I cannot be racist".

That one has to be up there alongside, "but I really find black women / men attractive / I have had relationships with black men / women", "some of my best friends..."

I am pushed for time today but one way that I may be able to be an ally to you and to BME women is that I have for some years worked extremely hard to research the astroturfing of activist movements by sinister actors.

I can show you some of the ways in which BME women's (and men's) struggles have been appropriated and astroturfed by cults, criminals and other sinister forces if this would be helpful and I would be pleased to do this free of charge as a way of showing my commitment to the struggle.

It may take me a day or 2 to put a few things together and even then it would just be the start as I have a lot of data to share.

The BAME covers ethnic minority as well as black and Asian? So Romanians, travellers etc ?

The recent doxxing of Pragna Patel of Southall Black Sisters has also been weighing on me.

I didn't know about this! Jesus Christ.

OP on these boards all you get is white fragility if you talk about race issues.

I came on here thinking 'doh" but the first few responses seem unexpectedly aggressive , so thanks for raising this, will try and read later

It's good to listen to a diverse range of voices on these issues. I found the ones below really useful.

unherd.com/2020/06/minority-women-can-think-for-themselves/

[quote BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup]@Falleninwithabadcrowd Romanians are white Europeans, so no they aren't BAME.[/quote]
Do you know what BAME stands for?

@madwoman1ntheattic my personal experience is that in university and the workplace, the womens/feminist networks are very white oriented, and the BAME networks are very male oriented.

That's a really thought-provoking way to put it. I work in a team that's at least half BAME women so not my personal experience, but I will be aware of this perspective now.

I think there is a difference between recognising the systematic racism that affects black people and agreeing that black lives matter and wanting to give money to BLM-UK. Having said that, apart from the conflict between trans and women's rights many of the aims would be agreed with in many feminist groups, radical feminism is after all about restructuring society to remove the patriarchal structures and capitalism and the nuclear family are seen as part of that.

Both the first and second wave of feminism grew out of campaigns for black rights. Maybe black feminism will be the focus this time. We are constantly telling men they need to listen to women about sexism, it really shouldn't be too big a jump for white women to listen to black women about racism. Our privilege is that we don't have to see racism, it doesn't affect us. But we should use our insights into sexism to be anti-racism and advocate for those less privileged than ourselves.

The recent doxxing of Pragna Patel of Southall Black Sisters

I would be extremely interested to learn more about this

Are there any links or screen shots you can share?

missyoumuch

Hi there, sorry haven't rtft but will later.

I am a white woman with friends from many different races and ethnic groups - and very very much want to be a BAME ally.

Thank you for posting, for asking hard questions, for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

Many of my white female friends and I recognise the difficulties and are really trying to educate ourselves around the intersections of sex and race - books, articles, podcasts, etc.

I remember as a young feminist thinking 'But all our struggles as women are the same' - I even wondered if it was racist to assume that black women's struggles were different to mine. Does that make sense? I was brought up to be colour-blind - well-intentioned of course, but not helpful, as I know now that different women face different challenges.

I think some white women feel threatened by the idea that they have benefitted from structural racism. I do not. I am having lots of conversations with my BAME female friends at the moment, which I find so awkward to start, but I have explained that I need to do the right thing! And my friends have been lovely, telling me what to read, how to help, how to educate my children about racism etc. I am so glad I am having these conversations. It has been eye-opening.

Please keep posting and thank you for sharing your experiences. I hear you. I want to be better.

I think there is a huge amount of divide and rule in anti-feminist circles between BAME women, white working class women and white middle class women. The term intersectional feminism has been co-opted by the trans lobby but we need to be clear-sighted and think carefully. White women are ridiculed when they talk about sex-balance in senior posts or unequal pay or safeguarding in toilets because they’re told these are first world problems and shouldn’t we be thinking about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia. Women in Saudi Arabia are (we’re told upthread) encouraged to think about feminism as a joke, and something that doesn’t relate to them. Who benefits from all of this whataboutery? Not any of us...

@hoodathunkit I'd be interested in reading more when you have time.

Do you know what BAME stands for?

Actually I don't think I do.

I have been involved in discussions with various people who claim to belong to the catagories of "black" and BAME / BME and I think that there is no universally agreed clear definition of who is in and who is out of that category.

With some Asian people and people of the African diaspora it is clear but when it comes to say, Chinese people and some other minorities it becomes less clear.

Are Chinese people black for example? I know Chinese people who identify as black because they have experienced significant racism. Some African people would dispue the inclusion of Chinese people in this category although Chinese people would I thnk be considered to be included within the BAME category.

This issue around categories is important and central to discussing these issues. I just think it is important to be honest about issues where there are blurry boundaries as the liminal spaces where the coundaries are unclear are where a lot of the thinking needs to happen.

I think it is also imortant to be honest about things when we don't know the answer or the answer is unclear.

@MacaroonMama

I remember as a young feminist thinking 'But all our struggles as women are the same' - I even wondered if it was racist to assume that black women's struggles were different to mine. Does that make sense? I was brought up to be colour-blind - well-intentioned of course, but not helpful, as I know now that different women face different challenges.

I’d never considered this before. Thought provoking.

I think you can support the ideology of BLM , without supporting the political organisation and agreeing with everything they say.

However, I also realise(and have had for some time) that there is a massive issue with black women being expected to join in and support feminist causes, while not getting the same back when it comes to race. Not just that, but even worse they're marginalised, told they're wrong etc if something that would benefit them on the race issues is in any way detrimental to feminism.

There has been a fair amount of "pick a side " recently and I can see why BAME women are angry and struggling with seeing what they considered their sisters and allies turn on them.

100% spot on. There has been many threads on here where black women have raised issues about race/their experiences and they have been shouted down and the threads always ends up the same - BLM bashing, racial animosity. As a black woman, support goes both ways.How will things ever change when our voices are so often silenced. Mumsnet really is not a safe space for black women to talk about their experiences.

the womens/feminist networks are very white oriented, and the BAME networks are very male oriented.

What does "white oriented" mean? I'm assuming you are talking about the UK. The vast majority of the population here is white. Why do people act surprised that therefore most groups and organisations and networks will be predominantly white?

Men in general seek status and power. BAME men might find it harder to find a seat at the table alongside other (white) men because there's more competition and less places up for grabs.
Whenever any group based on an 'identity' is set up, like a BAME network, it's an opportunity for BAME men to muscle in and gain easier access to the status and power since there's less competition. It's standard male dominating behaviour that is consistent irrespective of nationality or ethnicity.
BAME women could set up their own network, or challenge BAME men and get them to share the status and power in these networks with BAME women.

I'd love to see more threads by BAME women about their particular struggles. I have learned a lot from MN and FWR over the years. My thinking has most definitely been challenged and changed. I do see there is not much discussion of the particular issues for BAME women here, made by BAME women themselves.

Right now I see few threads started about BAME issues in FWR. Maybe it is chicken and egg: women won't start threads on BAME issues if they think the other women are not interested in BAME issues, evidenced by seeing little discussion of BAME issues?

You specifically mention trans issues as taking up a lot of air time here. In real life, I see very few BAME women being "allies". I see a lot of BAME women realising that erosion of women's rights will affect the most disadvantaged most, so BAME women will end up suffering more if women are required by law to let men into female spaces upon the man's say so. So a BAME woman talking about women's rights in relation to the TRA agenda might focus more on the general topic and not bother much with the race element at the point? Could that be a factor in why there is less discussion of BAME women's issues here?

What would get more discussion going?

Stop I, stop trying to divide. I’m a black woman and I don’t want a job or promotion because I’m black, I want one because I’m the best for the job.

Yes white women are are higher represented in areas some jobs and positions but there are, surprise surprise in Britain, more white women than black and the black or BAME women have to want to go into that job.

I work in STEM and do a lot of STEM Outreach and I’ve gone to schools that are predominantly white and I’ve been to schools where the pupils are predominantly BAME. When I looked at our applications though, all were white, 2 were white females but when we interviewed the white females they just weren’t what we were after. We could have just brought them into the apprenticeship for diversity reasons but we picked the best people, who just happened to be male. Everyone had a chance to apply and we picked the best.

You’re saying if there was a BAME applicant they should get the apprenticeship no matter what? I don’t think so. Who is that helping, how is that fair to anyone? I do not want to get somewhere in life just because I’m BAME and am being used to help a company hit their diversity quota. I have a feeling OP you don’t actually want white women as your ally, stop trying to put women against each other.