Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

But people are claiming if you even use the phrase “black lives matter” you’re signing onto anti-women rhetoric.

Who is claiming that? I've seen/heard some people say they don't support BLM because of X or Y. Some footballers were in the press yesterday saying this. However I've not seen anyone who does support it be accused of being anti women.

I strongly believe that there are some white women who are allies with the black ladies. We do stand up and lets just look at what's been happening lately. There have been so many white people especially women with their faces in tears, standing up for black lives matters at the protests. I have seen white women making amazing speeches in regards to what is happening now and what's happened years ago.
Yes, black people have suffered at the hands of white for donkey years. It kills my heart. It kills me and it makes me so sad and angry. I can't even watch certain stories on news, certain history books, movies or TV shows on slavery etc because it deeply affects me
My husband is from west africa and even he gets upset when we discuss it and teach it to our eldest children.
I've taught myself more about it because unfortunately the schools here only teach small parts, of what they want. I love learning about african cultures and history. And I am proud to say as a white woman, black history is my history.

@Miriel

OP is over in AIBU saying 'the trans community supports black women more than white women do' FYI.

Odd, because the transactivist argument that TWAW because black women are women is one of the more racist things I've heard.

Grand. Maybe sloganeering IS more important than actually working to eradicate systemic racism and misogyny. It’s certainly easier. I understand the anger. But I understand the anger in the black women that have ditched BLM too. And of course the trans community supports black women. They can’t piss them off, as they use them as a ‘gotcha’ against women. I mean, black women and transwomen being completely comparable subsets of the sex class women and all . Factually incoherent and racist, not really my thing. I’d rather look for concrete ways to move forward rather than looking for reasons to promote more division. Not bothering to go look on AIBU.

@Quillink so the main issues of BLM which relate to police violence and systemic racism must be put aside because of some of the group’s views on sex and gender?

Where did I say that? It's not either or. I can support many of their aims whilst not supporting the organisation itself because it denigrates women. Like the Labour Party, Green Party and all the rest.

To me that’s asking BAME women to choose and it feels deeply unfair.

BAME women should choose what they wish. It's none of my business and nor do they need my advice or permission.

But people are claiming if you even use the phrase “black lives matter” you’re signing onto anti-women rhetoric.

That's obviously silly. But I can see why people might want to distance themselves from the misogynist elements of BLM (the organisation's) manifesto. Even while supporting their core aims in principle.

BLM is to TRAs what LGBT+ is: something to join, make the right noises about and then ultimately centre themselves in. I personally think black people should therefore be very wary of them.

...That is separate to my belief that black lives matter and racism must be resisted by all of us.

Agree with all of this.

OP it’s not that I don’t support BAME or BLM. It’s just there is not much I can do in my everyday life. I don’t have any hiring or economic power myself.

The only thing I can do is argue against people who say ALM and call out racism when I see it. But in my circles it’s either non existent or very covert so not easy to argue against.

Still sounds to me like some white women are claiming BLM is a Trojan horse to bring in trans rights which is anti women and not addressing the core of BLM which has nothing to do with trans issues.

www.reddit.com/r/BAMEVoicesUK/comments/h9l2kh/intersectional_gang_rise_up/utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

OP, I think it is a mistake to expect anything from white women. Mumsnet is very strongly dismissive of racism/prejudice/unconscious bias existing to any significant degree in British society, especially middle class British society.

White women will support black women when black women promote the interests of white women - see the Allison Bailey case. There is a lot of heartfelt support for Allison Bailey but I get the sense it’s because she’s saying the right things. And comments on that thread allude to Allison Bailey having the right sort of profile, what with her being black and a lesbian. Like posters think being black or lesbian or even better, both, means you get listened to and get preferential treatment, at least in the media. Almost like people really think being white and heterosexual is a great disadvantage nowadays.

Mm. To me it sounds as though people are signing up to aggressively tackling racism and misogyny, and believe ‘BLM’ as an entity is problematic in one or other of those regards. But fortunately, it’s possible to disagree. I prefer considering all mandates of an organization, and thinking critically.
Some of the BLM tenets are problematic.
BLM doesn’t get a pass because BLM. Hence some black feminists distancing themselves.
Are they allowed to? Or is it just white feminists who distance themselves that you have a problem with?

My feminism centres women full stop.

Those worst affected by the effects of a male centred society are disproportionately represented in BAME communities.

I will continue to campaign against violence and rape and for better healthcare and education. For all women.

I treat Transwomen with respect and dignity, but I don't believe they are women.

As an aside, all of the Transwomen I have ever met have been white. The epitome of make white privilege.

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

Perhaps this is a mindset prevalent in some places online but not as widespread in real life. When talking about Black Lives Matter among the women I know, there has been no mention of sex vs race, just shared outrage and horror of what BME people often face and what they can do to help. But I think we talk more about Black Lives Matter as a mindset rather than the organisation itself, which might make a difference.

OP can you tell me more? I'm white, I'm a feminist, and it never crossed my mind not to be an ally of BME women. Just look at the stats on maternity outcomes for black women. I feel like women in general are dismissed by medics often, therefore black women are going to be worst affected because they will be affected by both structural sexism and structural racism.
Probably my friendship group is a bit of an echo chamber though - so I'd like to know: a) what your experiences are of white women dismissing black women's experience
b) what white feminist allies can do about it?
Both genuine questions.

For sure there are white people, including white women who spend lots of time talking about the issues they have with the principles of the Black Lives Matter organisation. It’s just a cover to maintain the status quo. They could instead support other initiatives to improve equality in society rather than blathering on about what they don’t like about Black Lives Matter.

@missyoumuch

How do white women not in these positions change things?

As a start by accepting that racism compounds disadvantages for BAME women, taking their concerns seriously, and in moments when BAME people’s issues are getting public attention not diverting the topic or minimizing.

This. I agree OP - it's not all white people, just like it's not all men, but we do need to have honest discussions about race. BAME women experience added burdens specific to them that need acknowledging.

OP, I'm sorry for some of the responses you're getting here. You're not in the wrong, and white feminism does have more to do. I think the interesting issue is what precisely, and that's worth exploring, I'll set up another thread so as not to detail this one.

I think part of the issue is shame. It's shameful for white feminists to think they have more work to do still on race, when already focused on fighting patriarchy, and to some extent, class. But that's for individuals to address. For anyone wanting more info, the chapter in Reni Eddo-Lodge's book on white feminism is valuable. I don't agree with all of it, but an eye-opening read.

As for the trans activist community being more supportive of Black women... well, I disagree. It's just another way to centre biological men. It doesn't advance black women, in my opinion. There's been BLM protests, BTLM protests - nothing for BfemaleLM and nor will there be unless as an afterthought now. Breonna Taylor's killers won't be jailed any time soon.

And while I wholeheartedly support the movement BLM and anti-racism, I do not support the actual organisation because I am not a Marxist and when I look at their stated aims beyond ending systemic racism, they don't align with my general beliefs, particularly when the U.K. BLM branch is merrily lying that the Zionists are gagging the British press. I can be anti-racist and support the fundamental concept that BLM, without supporting BLM the organisation.

[quote missyoumuch]Still sounds to me like some white women are claiming BLM is a Trojan horse to bring in trans rights which is anti women and not addressing the core of BLM which has nothing to do with trans issues.

www.reddit.com/r/BAMEVoicesUK/comments/h9l2kh/intersectional_gang_rise_up/utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf[/quote]
That's really not it. There are a number of aims that people don't agree with, as they have said. My comment was in direct relation to your claims on AIBU.

I'm not going to take Travis Alabama seriously, sorry. Somebody who fetishises teenage girls and demands to use women's changing rooms even though he isn't a trans woman? No thanks. Although some of the other threads on that sub Reddit look interesting, so I will be reading further.

Do you see it as all-or-nothing in regards to BLM's manifesto, OP? Genuinely interested to hear more. And I am open to changing my mind on some things.

I think you can support the ideology of BLM , without supporting the political organisation and agreeing with everything they say.

However, I also realise(and have had for some time) that there is a massive issue with black women being expected to join in and support feminist causes, while not getting the same back when it comes to race. Not just that, but even worse they're marginalised, told they're wrong etc if something that would benefit them on the race issues is in any way detrimental to feminism.

There has been a fair amount of "pick a side " recently and I can see why BAME women are angry and struggling with seeing what they considered their sisters and allies turn on them.

Clouds said the disadvantages faced by a Romanian immigrant have nothing to do with BAME women.
Why not?
Isn't she BAME?
Does BAME just mean dark skinned?

They could instead support other initiatives to improve equality in society rather than blathering on about what they don’t like about Black Lives Matter

Can you one not do both?

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

I think you can support the ideology of BLM , without supporting the political organisation and agreeing with everything they say.

However, I also realise(and have had for some time) that there is a massive issue with black women being expected to join in and support feminist causes, while not getting the same back when it comes to race. Not just that, but even worse they're marginalised, told they're wrong etc if something that would benefit them on the race issues is in any way detrimental to feminism.

There has been a fair amount of "pick a side " recently and I can see why BAME women are angry and struggling with seeing what they considered their sisters and allies turn on them.

I haven't personally seen that, but I believe you and that is so wrong.

can one not can you one!

How many of the white women who get selected for corporate boards

Are here on mumsnet? Probably none.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

I think you can support the ideology of BLM , without supporting the political organisation and agreeing with everything they say.

However, I also realise(and have had for some time) that there is a massive issue with black women being expected to join in and support feminist causes, while not getting the same back when it comes to race. Not just that, but even worse they're marginalised, told they're wrong etc if something that would benefit them on the race issues is in any way detrimental to feminism.

There has been a fair amount of "pick a side " recently and I can see why BAME women are angry and struggling with seeing what they considered their sisters and allies turn on them.

This is indeed how I feel. That BAME issues are marginalised by many feminists. And that sadly some white feminists treat BAME women the same way that they accuse men of treating them. Belittling, questioning motives, accusing of hysteria, etc.

It astonishes me that a forum like MN which has a huge core of passionate feminists, is at the same time one of the most closed-minded on race.

And more frustratingly, BAME men have used this as a way to crush feminist movements within the community. “Oh feminism is a white thing, it’s not in your best interests” kind of thing.

Where is my home as a black woman? It seems like we get short shrift from everyone.

I suppose you have your answer op - depressing as it is. I feel like I've just watched every criticism of white feminism Reni Eddo Lodge lists in action.

I'd like to think I am an ally or at least have the potential to be but I absolutely recognise the systematic racism at play here. Many of the posters who've replied are so busy feeling personally attacked they are completely unable to listen. It's this attitude that's responsible for dividing feminism not the people like the op who speak up about the problems they face with white feminism.

@missyoumuch

#notallwhitewomen

Don't forget:

10th rule of racism: the worst thing about white racism is that it makes white people look bad.

12th rule of racism: BAME people's ability to recognize white behavior patterns is racism.