Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

I think one thing we can all do very easily (if we haven't already of course) is to look at the links that the op asked us to read. The Rachel Cargle article in Harpers Bazaar talks about how white women so often react to these discussions, and it's pretty much a checklist of how this thread has unfolded:

White women get so caught up in how they feel in a moment of black women expressing themselves that they completely vacuum the energy, direction, and point of the conversation to themselves and their feelings.

Speaking strictly for myself, I know I do this.

I thought this was interesting too:
“the key to moving forward is what we do with our discomfort. We can use it as a door out—blame the messenger and disregard the message. Or we can use it as a door in by asking, Why does this unsettle me? What would it mean for me if this were true?”
(That's not Cargle; she's quoting Dr. Robin DiAngelo.)

That's not Cargle; she's quoting Dr. Robin DiAngelo.)

But I've seen posters on MN criticise DiAngelo for her approach. Who says who is right?

I didn't say whether she was right. I said I thought it was interesting.

@missyoumuch

Ladies - I have a full time job and two children. I do not have time to lead a revolution via MN on changing the hearts and minds of otherwise well meaning women who struggle to place their racial privilege in the context of non-white women and their issues.

I posted here partly to vent and partly to make people aware of how their are perceived.

The expectations many of your are placing on me are absurd and remind me of so many cases where minorities are asked to do the work for the majority to get them to stop being prejudiced.

I recognize this. As a white woman I support and don’t ask to be praised for it or for my BME friends to educate me. When I get it wrong I apologise but really crucially don’t make it about me (fragility)

I am white. I have absolutely no doubt that I am in a better position in life -socioeconomically, and in terms of my emotional wellbeing - than I would be if I were the same me, but gone through life being black. That doesn't mean I did anything wrong. But denying it IS wrong.

I'm sorry but I have no time for this navel gazing. I find it self indulgent and actually changes nothing. No one on this thread is either denying or supporting racism. No one denies the layers and complexities involved. But getting up every morning saying forgive me for I am white and privileged achieves nothing except a holier than thou attitude. We're all sinners but I recognise I'm a sinner therefore I'm really superior.

If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.

The issue is really a disadvantage/advantage axis.
I come from the Linda Bellos, Trevor Philip's generation. I'm afraid I need specific objectives and strategies to achieve meaningful change. And honest dialogue is an essential part of that process. Huge progress has been made but like feminism has over the last decade or so rolled back.

@Imnobody4, “If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.”
I’ve had many conversations with BAME friends along the lines of have you thought of, are you interested in? Similarly a much younger colleague has really championed me to do things I hadn’t thought of because I felt too old. Championing other women is really powerful and effective.

I read the article. I read White Fragility.
I disagree with both.

I see a racial essentialism in both that I think is harmful - not to white people, really, but too the anti-racist cause.

I can't agree with an approach I genuinely see as harmful.in the same way I can't agree with gender essentialism just give supportive.

I wonder if what is being asked is less political and more personal - a desire that white women bear witness the pain of racism.

I'm not good at bearing witness. I am good at rocking up to hand out election how to vote flyers for my federal and state MP's (both women, neither white).

I might be particularly dense and/or racist, but I literally don't understand what is being asked. It feels emotional, not material.

Sorry for typos, typing with a temp, prob not a great idea!

Do we ask men to not apply to a job to help Women? No. Then why would you do it for race? But we might write to complain if the early stages of recruitment are not blind,

Better to lead by example, shining a light on the good performance of the community that needs supporting...that might just be saying thanks and copying in the line manager

If you have more power, putting in place measures , such as querying the team that has never promoted outside of its comfort zone , just calling it out makes people stop to think

I'm trying to educate myself on intersectionality. I tend to view things through a data lens, so I took a look at the ONS report on income and race and its very interesting reading. It's here, for anyone who wants a look at it.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018

If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.

My dream job would be being in charge of the Men in Black, only it would be the Women in Black, only that brand has already been taken.
Instead of monitoring extra-terrestrials I would be monitoring networks of cultists who hide in plain sight. In fact I have been doing my dream job for many years on an informal, very low paid, state sponsored capacity. My poverty stricken lifestyle and (incorrect) diagnosis of delusional disorder has meant that I have been able to access spaces and services for people who are extremely vulnerable and assess them. I have also been able to spend zillions of hours on the www researching my interests. I am in a very empowered position to report back from the belly of the beast in this respect.

I very much doubt that any BME women (or anyone else for that matter) would want to trade places with me, either in terms of what I have endured over my life (3 1/2 years a slave) plus many years of batshit gaslighting, however I am please to offer some of the fruits of my research for free in an unpaid capacity, for the benefit of all.

I come from the Linda Bellos, Trevor Philip's generation. I'm afraid I need specific objectives and strategies to achieve meaningful change. And honest dialogue is an essential part of that process. Huge progress has been made but like feminism has over the last decade or so rolled back.
I am from the same generation as you. Linda Bellos and Trevor Phillips are of interest to me (not so much in terms of uncovering scandals as in terms of what they represent). Also of interest to me, in many ways, is Candace Owens and her relationship to the power structures to the right of the political spectrum that are relevant to my interests and to this thread.

I agree with you about honest dialogue. There is much that needs to be discussed.

I am extremely pushed for time today and will post later today if I can. If this thread runs out of posts I will start a new one.

Look, if a poor white woman has half a crumb, and her black friend has a quarter of a crumb, together or apart, they've still got less than one crumb between them.

What's the point of dividing those two women by describing them as inborn racial enemies? I don't care if black women choose to focus on race and I assume that no-one really minds if my focus is, say, housing, or sex trafficking. Both efforts work towards a better world.

[quote nellodee]I'm trying to educate myself on intersectionality. I tend to view things through a data lens, so I took a look at the ONS report on income and race and its very interesting reading. It's here, for anyone who wants a look at it.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018[/quote]
That's a really interesting analysis.

I actually find all the white people on here rushing to say sorry, thank you for educating me a bit cringy, in much the way I'd find a man saying that about feminism a bit cringy. A senior woman at work wrote a blog like this about her white privilege. It was supposed to show how much the organisation cared, but all it did was show how the organisation didn't actually have any BAME people in senior positions they could get to write a blog on racism!

So I do agree that less time spent mea culpaing and more time actively doing things to tackle racism would be more helpful.

As an ethnic minority woman, I don't give a shit if someone says they feel bad for their white privilege or whatever. It doesn't help any BAME people at all.

If you actually care, don't bother posting this stuff, spend the same amount of time signing a petition or writing to your MP to take some kind of action. If you want to read a book, read a book, but don't feel you have to tell everyone you read it!

I'm trying to educate myself on intersectionality.

Very relevant to this issue is the issue of "nodes", the internet influencers who influence across multiple networks / categories of campaigning and activist groups, very often groups that are oppressed in various ways.

In my research into cults they have definitely targeted influencers who are effectively nodes occupying influential spaces across multiple networks.

It is not just cults that do this. Political parties identify tribes and nodes of influence when they are devising election and other campaigns.

Basically if you can brainwash, influence or bribe the right person you can influence countless others.

This is something that needs to be understood, as does its relationship to intersectionality, which can, if due dilligence is not followed, morph into tokenism and worse.

Sorry, really have to go for now, but just wanted to comment on this point

Whether we're tackling racism or tackling misogyny or tackling eg. homophobia, it's all important work tackling prejudice and discrimination. If we have time to tackle two or more of those at once, fantastic, but I accept that not everyone does.

Time spent berating others for not tackling both racism and misogyny is time that could be usefully spent tackling one or the other.

So yes, I'd rather this thread didn't exist as it just foments division between two groups of people both doing important work. And takes up time that could usefully be spent tackling either racism or misogyny, or both.

So I'll leave this thread. As racism and misogyny haven't gone away while people were calling feminists racist or while feminists were stressing they did care about racism!

I read the article. I read White Fragility.
I disagree with both.

I agree.

I saw some ‘educational material’ explaining why white people who only date within their ethnic group are racist. I’ve also seen ‘educational material’ informing white people that exclusively dating another ethnic group is fetishising and thus racist. It is more commonly known as ‘if she floats, she’s a witch’.

I’ve read up extensively on Whiteness and how it should be abolished in education settings. Apparently, STEM subjects are rife with Whiteness and should pretty much be abolished.

As long as modern day activism of any sort is grounded in divisive, retributive and scientifically illiterate ideas, I cannot be part of it.

This does not mean I believe white privilege and male privilege exist. They are observable, in much the same way that it can be seen that a giraffe has a long neck. However, in much the same way that the giraffe’s neck can be explained using the scientifically accepted theory of evolution through natural selection or by Lamarck’s alternative and incorrect explanation of acquired characteristics, privilege can be explained using ideas that do not stand up to academic scrutiny.

Can white women be allies to BME women?

No, OP, white women can never be allies to BME women, just as middle class women can never be allies to the working class women and... Basically, no person who does not have the exact same life experience as the other person can be an ally to that other person.
It is impossible and we must - each single one - remain in our unique, highly individualized bubbles, so that we are easier to rule by the moneyed class, who inexplicably is the only group of people where being an ally to one another comes naturally, and who kindly educate us in the media how we plebs are all too different and too oppressive of one another to be allies.

This does not mean I believe white privilege and male privilege exist.

Major Double negative fail there - meant to say that I do not believe they don’t exist.

I’ve had many conversations with BAME friends along the lines of have you thought of, are you interested in? Similarly a much younger colleague has really championed me to do things I hadn’t thought of because I felt too old. Championing other women is really powerful and effective.

So have I. I've interviewed for posts, and encouraged, mentored young black women. I've run inset days for teachers on libraries and books from the diversity point of view as well as actually advising on library stock. I've lobbied publishers about representation of black people including bias on Africa and history.

I've monitored stock in public libraries and created databases to enable access to those books. Ensured black writers and storytellers were represented in any programmes of activities. (Throughout the entire county including the all white towns.) Bought books from small independent black publishers. Consulted and worked with community organisations.

I've also worked with a wide range of staff, some who I would call viscerally rascist and others anxious and fairly ignorant e.g. worried about daughter having black boyfriend. I have never ever called anyone racist and would never use the term white privilege because it's counterproductive. It's a blame game, win lose set up. It sets up an immediate resistance.
If someone makes a statement like that to me my immediate response is to ask if that is true and that means trying to disprove it. That is a normal intelligent response not just about race. You only accept the idea of white privilege once you've thoroughly interrogated it and found it broadly true. But it still leaves the question of is it useful? I just don't think it is useful.

Difficult conversations are absolutely essential but have to be nuanced.
Listening is a two way street. I just find this thread heart breaking. Everything I did has now all but vanished. I was made redundant. Staff have been reduced, stock selection is now outsourced, internal expertise is gone.
Children's publishing is rubbish, the range of stock available is far less diverse.

Just a little snippet about Candace Owens

www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/02/05/everything-need-know-launch-turning-point-uk/

Turning Point UK is fascinating but oh so many rabbit holes and so little time

So when some readers say that white women will choose to side with a BME woman whose views align with their own and dismiss those of BME women with opposing views they are correct and this is an issue worthy of creative and thoughtful reflection.

To the racists where I live Trevor Phillips is a hero and they feel that they can claim the "I'm not racist" position by saying that they agree with him.

I have not heard them opine on Candace Owens yet but give it time and she will join Trevor Phillips in the category of BME people you can claim to like to prove you are not racist. Or something.

Dianne Abbot on the other hand is the devil incarnate as far as they are concerned.

It seems to me that whoever you are there will be good and bad things about you. All human beings are complex and possess a mixture of good and bad traits. All people are vulnerable to being manipulated by cults, including politicians, royalty and other people of influence.

The bullying and shaming of people, including politicians, is horrible and part of the pendulum swing to and from the extremes of left and right. Robust criticism is one thing but people seem to feel at liberty to bully and attack public figures to a level that is cruel and can result if very serious consequences.

The wish to "purge" and no-platform academics and politicians is like a collective version of the wish to purge the unwanted aspects of the self which manifests in various damaging activities including the use of skin whitening creams, the use of betonite clay for "colon cleanses", the use of "yoni pearls", "jamu sticks" and lysol vaginal douches, self harming by cutting, FGM and (at least in some cases) "gender reassignment surgeries".

Apologies for the derail.

Listening is a two way street. I just find this thread heart breaking. Everything I did has now all but vanished. I was made redundant. Staff have been reduced, stock selection is now outsourced, internal expertise is gone.

Just wanted to say that I'm so sorry that you are in this situation.

I have endured much adversity in my life and it has been my experience that sometimes the darkest hour is just before the sunlight breaks through.

That sounds a bit "positive thinking" (which I hate) but it is true.

It is also true that it is often possible to turn extremely challenging and even catastrophic situaitons to your advantage if you can stay thinking. This is my specialist area in fact :)

Children's publishing is rubbish, the range of stock available is far less diverse.

Could this mean there is the potential for you to fill a gap in the market?

We need sane, rational, empowering children's books now like never before

It feels like many white feminists refuse to accept that they benefit from any privilege in society due to their race

Yup, it's a who's got it worst contest. I'm more oppressed than you are.

I get the feeling sometimes that many people feel they have to affirm the idea of white privilege, or it means they are bigoted or aren't taking people's experiences of bigotry seriously.

But it's possible to see disparate outcomes across groups without thinking that the concept of privilege is a good or accurate way of describing why that happens.

This is the basic argument by those who don't want to use those terms - they don't accurately account for what is actually happening, and as such it tends to distort analysis. Not really teasing out what is correlation vs causation, for example, or whether the groupings you've used to look at the data are giving the impression of a particular result. In my working days we used to call that "situating the estimate" which means the analytical tools tend to create or give the perception of a particular kind of result. Usually because you already have an idea of what result you expect, and so the development of the tools, or the ones chosen, will reflect that perception.

There is an article from The Socialist Register on this, from a few years ago, that is well worth reading - Race, Class, Crisis: The Discourse of Racial Disparity and its Analytical Discontents - it lays out very clearly why analysis of statistics has to be handled very carefully - it can be found online by Googling, IIRC it's in PDF form.

I think it's also worth pointing out that the idea of white privilege has changed - in its original use it applied to very specific situations to describe concrete actions, for example where separating the working class by race was used as a technique in order to union break. That's rather different than pointing to an abstraction like "white privilege" as if it is a causative thing that creates disparate outcomes among groups.

Beyond that, as a rhetorical tool for combatting racism, it's a poor one that tends to divide people who need to be unified for political action, and reinforce essentialist views of race.

There are all kinds of reasonable reasons someone might reject the concept and language of privilege.

Another way of expressing privilege is that whatever a white person's situation is, it would be worse if she were not white.

This is kind of bunk, and I mean that in the nicest way, but it's just not true. Being black or white or brown is not independent from people's situation like that.

There are people who are non-white who come from very privileged backgrounds, whose families have had money and power. Someone like Afua Hirsche, or Ta-nehisi Coates, you can't separate their success from their race, or say, they'd have been better off white. Being non-white might have contributed to having some less than great experiences but that is not the same thing. And if you compare them to some poor white person living in a trailer park, from a long line of what some would call "white trash" that is a designation that places them hierarchically well below black working class or middle class people ,for people who have that hierarchical mindset. Their whiteness is seen as connected to their social level because they are the wrong kind of white person.

If you say, well, poor white people are better off than poor black people, you are dividing up the whole category or class and then trying to use those smaller divisions to say something about the class as a whole - which is a little fraught in terms of looking at data.

People's history as a family and individual, and their place and advantages/disadvantages are obviously related to their ethnicity. If you are a black refugee from Ghana from a family that values education that has affected your life in many ways like any family history does. But individuals and families don't share a single history with all people with the same skin colour.