Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

Floisme

But we are dealing with the written word on here, so none of us can respond unless the comment is posted.

So we read it and then what?

A pp cited the initial comments here - calling the op a troll or a man - as proof of racism yet I've been called the same on this board many times. So, does that mean the same treatment is racist when given to one poster but, what, when given to another? Or could it be that regulars on this thread just do this to anyone that doesn't agree with them, regardless of race, which is equality isn't it?

I think the truth is, for many of us on here, is that we've been through decades of political activism, or holding to highly charged political positions of one form or other, but have now arrived at a place, in which we can now take a broader range view - with less heat, and more reflection.

I don't know why they did it Hear - all I know is that the responses made me squirm.

*None of which had anything to do with his murder, so irrelevant8

If you had read the sequence....that was in response to how GF could have changed his mind set. Having been poor, i refuse to accept that poverty and economic deprivation is a direct causal factor of criminality and extreme violence. That would be patronising in the extreme, and would do a disservice to al those who don't resort to violence and criminality as away to deal with their life circumstances.

His life choices and personal background do not justify the technique used to restrain him which appear to have led to his death

i don't think anyone has suggested that is the case.

@Floisme

I don't know why they did it Hear - all I know is that the responses made me squirm.

I get that, me too, and they enrage me when I'm on the receiving end but that doesn't mean racism is behind it does it?

It just feels like no constructive conversations can be had about any of this.

A pp cited the initial comments here - calling the op a troll or a man - as proof of racism yet I've been called the same on this board many times. So, does that mean the same treatment is racist when given to one poster but, what, when given to another? Or could it be that regulars on this thread just do this to anyone that doesn't agree with them, regardless of race, which is equality isn't it?

I'm very familiar with your questioning whether things are racist,including murder from other threads.

I'm also familiar with your "work" on the FWR board.

Nice merailing though... again.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

I'm not merailing I am asking.

But somehow it's ok for you to adopt this stance with me but not for other posters to adopt the same stance with op?

I've been on the wrong side of the recipe treatment myself Hear so, believe me, me I'm not a fan. But we all know why it happens. But the op's post didn't make my antennae twitch in the slightest. She simply sounded very pissed off - I think she even said at one point that she wanted to vent.
I'm not subscribing motives to anyone - it's not for me to say - but I felt embarrassed at how she was jumped on from the very beginning, before she'd even told her story.

But somehow it's ok for you to adopt this stance with me but not for other posters to adopt the same stance with op?

I do it because like I've said I'm familiar with your work. I've seen you deny sexism, misogyny, male violence and racism(it happened to me too, oh was it really racism or an unfortunate coincidence, crime of opportunity, etc)
Even on this thread you used your experience to try and negate the fact(yes fact) that systemic racism puts BAME women in danger and harms them when they need health care.
Women as a whole struggle in that area, black women even more so.

Anyways this a massive derail which I apologise to OP for and I'll stop now.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

I haven't denied that any of those exist I just may not necessarily agree that a particular example is evidence of them.

I've not denied that there are inequalities in medical care either but the article a poster quoted asked many questions about the reasons for the outcomes and it seems multifactorial. Why is it wrong to discuss that?

Funny how it's ok to silence some women isn't it?

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

But what creates this assumption that people who are in some way disagreeing with the person they are talking to aren't hearing them? Unless you actually take the view that "listening" means totally leaving behind any element of thinking about what is being said and coming to your own conclusions?

So replying with you're a troll,you're a man, not all women, this isn't an issue,this doesn't exist, that's not my experience , exaggerated claims of "you just want us to feel guilty" etc. is "listening " and just disagreeing?

A lot of the comments, especially in beginning were worded in a way to make OP shut up and go away. That is not listening.

The "you're a man, you're a troll" stuff is out of order, but unfortunately not uncommon on this site. I'm not sure why some people think anyone who disagrees with them is a man, it's pretty strange when you think about it.

Sometimes there is an honest mistake about trolls though, as there are people who purposefully try to just wind people up. I tend to err on the side of assuming that's not the goal but others are more sensitive.

However - I do think that a lot of sensitivity on this issue now, around terms like white fragility, privalege, etc, has been created by the nature of the identity politics discourse. The whole of it is dismissive, racist, condescending, and authoritarian, and for the last few years it's been more and more the way of mainstream discourse on a number of issues, race being one of them. A lot of people are starting to push back, they feel silenced and like they can't say the right thing, they've been told various times they are bigots even though they really care about justice. And so whenever people come along using that language, they react, they are unlikely to listen and see if the person has something new to say, they are pretty sure it's going to go as it always does and they will be given no respect for what they say. Many of these are people who have been activists for years.

This is the outcome of identity politics and it will always be the outcome.

I will post the Akanbi video again, because I think she describes really well how this has happened and how it has completely screwed up people's desire to listen:

I've been following the thread for days, and thinking, rather than replying.

I have no trouble understanding that my white skin protects me from racism, and that this isn't the case for many women around the globe. Racism is unjust, and a double burden on women who are not white.

I think where there is a disconnect is the assumption that this white privilege automatically translates into significant social, economic and institutional capital for white women as a whole.

Personally, I have very little economic or social capital, despite being white. I have my one vote, I occasionally have spare cash to donate and I have a small circle of family and friends, none of whom deny their white privilege (for those who are white - my immediate family isn't).

So these calls to perform allyship leave me somewhat bemused. I already use the very limited amounts of capital I have in pro social (including anti racist) ways, and that's about all I can do.

It's as if there's an unspoken need in the conversation, and I'm not sure what it is, or how to meet it.

I've audited my own life, and I'm satisfied that I'm doing what I can on issues of race that pertain to my own country.

Am I an ally? By the standards on this thread, possibly not. Am I truly doing what I can within a very small sphere of influence? Yes.

It may not be enough to assauge the pain of racism. That's sad, but it's also realistic.

I think where there is a disconnect is the assumption that this white privilege automatically translates into significant social, economic and institutional capital for white women as a whole

But it does translate into that privaledge when compared to BAME women. Nobody is saying life has been easy for white women, we are saying it's not been made harder because of the colour of your skin. You don't have to deal with structural and institutional racism AND sexism, therefore you are privaledged in that regard.

It's exactly the same problem as with understanding feminism , or climate change for that matter you can not prove or disprove an advantage by looking at individual cases, you have to look across the group/picture

In a like for like scale, on average if you take pairs of women who are otherwise identical except for skin colour ,age 20 , then the white group will on average by age 30 be richer and healthier and less likely to have a criminal conviction , less likely to have suffered physical abuse. There will be exceptions, and it's quite possible that a BAME will be top of the pile, but that does not disprove the priveledge the whites has

Well, I wasn't seeking to disprove white privilege, which I explicitly acknowledged in my post.

I was simply reflecting that as an individual, my personal social and economic capital is nonetheless limited. I do what I can, but if it isn't enough by some projected standard of what white privilege should manifest as in the material world, there's not much I can do about that.

A pp cited the initial comments here - calling the op a troll or a man - as proof of racism yet I've been called the same on this board many times. So, does that mean the same treatment is racist when given to one poster but, what, when given to another? Or could it be that regulars on this thread just do this to anyone that doesn't agree with them, regardless of race, which is equality isn't it?

The first poster following the OP's introduction accused her post of 'reeking of being a man'. It has now been deleted but it is a frequent form of put down on this board. It suggests that some posters are not prepared to listen and acknowledge those who have a different opinion/ life experience to them. There were a number of complaints about this on another thread recently as well.

I would hope that posters are able to contribute and express concerns about very important issues without being chased off in this manner.

@HeistSociety

Well, I wasn't seeking to disprove white privilege, which I explicitly acknowledged in my post.

I was simply reflecting that as an individual, my personal social and economic capital is nonetheless limited. I do what I can, but if it isn't enough by some projected standard of what white privilege should manifest as in the material world, there's not much I can do about that.

But that's the problem, you are looking at it as an individual level where that doesn't help at all. It needs to be looked at as a society level, otherwise you are just taking an issue that affects entire groups of people worldwide and making it about yourself. I'm not trying to be rude but your comments about your own social and economic position just dismisses the overall issue and doesn't actually awknowledge it. Sadly, it's people doing exactly as you have just done that is a major reason why BAME women feel there isn't a place for them in feminist discussions

Another way of expressing privilege is that whatever a white person's situation is, it would be worse if she were not white.

So the really well off, professionally successful black woman, who has never suffered sexual or domestic abuse, would probably still have climbed even higher if she had been white. It will inevitably be an even more isolating experience to sit in an executive board room than it is for a white woman. And in some situations, in which her economic privilege is not conspicuous, she will still be subject to racism in a way that her white counterpart won't.

The white woman who has struggled all her life, has been assaulted or abused or doesn't have enough money is still likely to have escaped extra injustices due to being white - whether it's having police be a little less dismissive of her complaints, or not being yelled at to go back to her own country' or called shitty names at school.

Being black adds an extra layer of challenge, prejudice and injustice ON TOP of whatever else you are dealing with. White privilege is not having the extra layer.

It really isn't rocket science, and the fact that it makes white folks uncomfortable doesn't change the fact that it is true.

I am white. I have absolutely no doubt that I am in a better position in life -socioeconomically, and in terms of my emotional wellbeing - than I would be if I were the same me, but gone through life being black. That doesn't mean I did anything wrong. But denying it IS wrong.

Where it gets more confusing for me is how best to be an ally. I think I do get and acknowledge white privilege. I donate money to black empowerment causes. I call out racism if I see it. But I also have a feeling that getting actively involved in black women's causes is to take them over and start to think my voice matters in a way that it shouldn't.... so tend to hold back a bit on the assumption that that reinforces people's ability and right to speak for themselves, rather than be spoken for. I don't want to do the race equivalent of man-splaining....(though I do spend quite a bit of time trying to explain to other white people). I don't know if this 'holding back' is right because of course it can look like passivity.

But as to the point as to feeling so low in the pecking order that you feel there is nothing you can do

Firstly recognising that but for your skin colour, things could be worse for you personally helps show that you do understand the problem

Secondly not trying to turn it into an oppression Olympics helps , as it unites rather than divides us, and it is only united that we will change things

And then, make yourself aware of any bias you might display that might perpetuate the problems. Would you make for a white rather than a BAME shop assistant? If that happens a lot it would affect their performance review .mAre you more likely to avoid eye contact with a BAME bus driver? That would affect their self esteem and how well connected they feel in society

You might not be able to much affect the structural issues, but by tackling everyday racism at grass roots level you will be helping to shift the playing field and the mindsets of those who can make those changes

You missed the part of my post where I said I already do what I can.

It's weird to be told to do what I already do, and have done since I could vote.

My point is that having done what I can, there is no more. I can't fix the wound of racism. Because I am one human, not the all powerful White Woman who could fix things if only she would try harder.

Then just say "yes - agree! I already do what I can - like x, y and z". I encourage anyone who isn't already doing what they can to do so! Everyone needs to contribute!"

Everyone needs to contribute!"

I agree. For some people though all they are able to do now is to not be racist themselves. Does it help anyone for people in very difficult situations to then be beaten over the head and told they aren't using their white privilege to help others?

People are complex. Lives are complicated. You might well hold privilege in one area but be absolutely disadvantaged in another area - if you are wrung out coping with the effects the disadvantage has over your life how do you have anything left to give? Making those people feel even worse or even more guilty benefits who?

Who is being beaten over the head?

I don't feel the OP is directing her justified anger over her experiences of racism and sexism at the right crowd.

As a BAME woman myself, I understand that tackling racism and tackling misogyny are both huge jobs, and realistically, few people have the time in their lives to tackle both. In my own case, I have at various points had to prioritise my action to the fight against one or the other, depending which felt most critical at that moment and I don't blame other women for choosing to focus on the one that affects them most. We all do what we can do. Intersectionality doesn't only apply re race and sex, either - plenty of feminists I admire are fighting on two fronts at once re homophobia and misogyny.

I found the OP frustrating and unhelpful because it sought to blame specifically white women for not solving all problems at once. When actually they are allowed to focus on just one thing at a time.

Yes, it would be lovely if all the good people had time to fight on all fronts at once but it's not realistic so I accept that when battling racism, I will turn to support from others doing the same. When I want to fight misogyny, I will look to support from feminists on here and elsewhere. I don't usually bother raising issues re racism on here, not because I think everyone here is racist, but because I get that everyone here is busy fighting other important battles re misogyny, which I also support them in fighting, when I get a break from fighting the constant racism.

I do sympathise that fighting on two or more fronts is exhausting, and yes, there will be individuals who support me in attacking misogyny who are racist or vice versa. But to suggest that white feminists are the main problem in racism is as problematic as suggesting that BAME men are the main problem in misogyny.

In any big movement there will be inevitably be some unpleasant individuals. Doesn't mean the movement is fundamentally at fault.

Divide and rule benefits only the racists and misogynists.