Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

Oh and the divide has always been there, the fact that you haven't noticed it speaks volumes.

@GreytExpectations

The divide in feminism is caused by white women not listening to BAME women's struggle.

The divide in other areas is based on all people.

Two words: Karen Attiah. That woman clearly doesn't want white women to listen to BAME women's struggles.

@Justhadathought

How do you propose George Floyd should have changed his mindset to survive

Nobody forced him into a life of petty criminality, or to holding a knife to the belly of a pregnant woman, did they? I'm sure he could have made different choices in his life - no matter how difficult his circumstances. We do all have individual agency and responsibility.

His life choices and personal background do not justify the technique used to restrain him which appear to have led to his death. People from poor and (petty) criminal backgrounds are certainly more likely to come into contact with the police, leading to higher levels of altercation and escalation. Still, he was entitled to a fair trial. The excessive force used deprived him of that right. I think a white man also died in very similar circumstances i.e. police kneeling on the neck. His death hasn't gotten the same levels of attention and scrutiny. What's become very obvious is the techniques used by the US police force seem excessive and very militarized.

Yes, lovely woman.

there are black women out there calling for revenge on white women

Is there? I have not seen this.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

Listening is a good first step but it isn’t the final destination.

True. However it's a very important first step, one which many posters are reluctant to take while arguing at the same time that there's no issue.

As long as that first step is not taken , no one's going anywhere.

But what creates this assumption that people who are in some way disagreeing with the person they are talking to aren't hearing them? Unless you actually take the view that "listening" means totally leaving behind any element of thinking about what is being said and coming to your own conclusions?

@missyoumuch

If I had a thread about men or trans doing x or y without specifying “not all” NONE of you saying I’m generalising would care.

Ask yourself why.

I think you mistaken about that. The same people who are whatabouting you here are the ones why tone police us when we talk about male violence and regularly whatabout the ones who just want to live their lives. I don't know if it is that lifetime of conditioning to police women who speak up for themselves or a more malevolent reason for disputing the obvious. Now I will catch up with the three new pages.

It's ok, the big bad wolf has been told.

Oh I see @DandyMandy so you are generalising all black women based on one?

So men are threatening her with violence and she is still blaming women for it. Nice logic there.

But what creates this assumption that people who are in some way disagreeing with the person they are talking to aren't hearing them? Unless you actually take the view that "listening" means totally leaving behind any element of thinking about what is being said and coming to your own conclusions?

So replying with you're a troll,you're a man, not all women, this isn't an issue,this doesn't exist, that's not my experience , exaggerated claims of "you just want us to feel guilty" etc. is "listening " and just disagreeing?

A lot of the comments, especially in beginning were worded in a way to make OP shut up and go away. That is not listening.

@GreytExpectations

Oh I see *@DandyMandy* so you are generalising all black women based on one?

No. My point was her tweet had a lot of likes, favourites and comments. Obviously a lot of people thought it was a good idea to put out there.

So men are threatening her with violence and she is still blaming women for it.

Is she? Or is she showing why "karen" behaviour is problematic (in many ways) because it perpetuates the idea that they need protection from black people(men in particular)?

The supposed rules of misogyny are basically all logical fallacies or sticks to beat people with without engaging with what they've said

The rules of misogyny are simply observations on the social hierarchy and some of the fallacious beliefs that we are taught to accept without question.
Pointing out logical fallacies framed as logical fallacies is, dare I say it, a logical fallacy called the tu quoque fallacy.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

So men are threatening her with violence and she is still blaming women for it.

Is she? Or is she showing why "karen" behaviour is problematic (in many ways) because it perpetuates the idea that they need protection from black people(men in particular)?

Men decided they were women's "protectors". Maybe some women still buy into that idea but frankly I find it insulting and silly.

@Floisme

All I can say to that is that when a man listens to me when I'm telling him of my experiences as a woman, then I feel something has shifted between us and that a start has been made. I'm sad to say it doesn't happen often, that I frequently come away feeling patronised, deflected, ignored and I hate the idea that this is being replicated here.

Me too. I suppose the expectation that women here are Feminists who have unpacked their social conditioning and so would recognize the need to ask themselves what they have internalized with regard to racism is the mistake I frequently make.

So, is it the case that a person claims discrimination based only on their own perception? Should society validate an individual's perception of discrimination if that's what the individual believes happened?

In fact I watched a interesting video clip of Malcom X telling people to beware of the white liberal who was too keen to take the lead rather than supporting.
Rewatched similar videos too, if you change "White Liberals" to "Far Left/Critical theory/ Wokerati" it kind of apt for what's happening right now.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YmjWW9tx4
m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjS0ZVa8oyI

Men decided they were women's "protectors". Maybe some women still buy into that idea but frankly I find it insulting and silly.

But that is the attitude perpetuated with "there's an aggressive black man" , "I'm feeling threatened by a black man" , "there's an angry black man trying to run me over, I'm fearing for my life", "I'm calling the police", "I'm calling Immigration ", "I'm calling your employer because you're harassing/threatening me".

That's a power that women in the US (at least) have. Having it wouldn't necessarily be an issue, and it could be blamed on men only . The issue is that they know they have it and they use it,frequently and deliberately.

@DandyMandy I think she is speaking quite a bit of truth and you just don't like it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Same way that some men don't like hearing about feminist issues and sexism.

She isnt mentioning men because she is discussing the issues faced within feminism, within discussions by women.

[quote GreytExpectations]@DandyMandy I think she is speaking quite a bit of truth and you just don't like it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Same way that some men don't like hearing about feminist issues and sexism.

She isnt mentioning men because she is discussing the issues faced within feminism, within discussions by women.[/quote]
Not the case at all. I don't feel uncomfortable. I'm not even the target of this "meme" but it still makes me feel uneasy. Women are told that we have to stay vigilant all the time when it comes to men. I don't see black men as being more aggressive than white men at all. If we don't and something happens to us, we are blamed for it. The last few sentences were aimed at one poster above by the way.

Should society validate an individual's perception of discrimination if that's what the individual believes happened?
I think we start by letting the individual have their say and we take what they're saying seriously. If we start mustering our defence before they've even finished telling their story then we can't hear or take on board what they're saying.

Some people have said that listening on it's own doesn't achieve anything and of course that's correct. But I think it can be the hardest part - and I include myself here.

Not the case at all. I don't feel uncomfortable. I'm not even the target of this "meme" but it still makes me feel uneasy. Women are told that we have to stay vigilant all the time when it comes to men. I don't see black men as being more aggressive than white men at all. If we don't and something happens to us, we are blamed for it. The last few sentences were aimed at one poster above by the way.

You are completly disregarding the entire point the OP is making, which I suppose actually proves her point entirely. This is about white women dismissing BAME women's specific struggles (you know how they are oppressed because they are BAME and a woman, whereas white women don't have that double level of oppression). Yet you are focusing on specifics of what this one woman has said instead of the issue at hand. It's no better than those against JK Rowling who are too busy being angry at her to understand the point she is trying to make.

@Goosefoot thanks I’ll look it up!