Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

@missyoumuchwhat and how should we change? What do you think will help?*

"That's not remotely clear to me beyond I should accept collective guilt for every bad thing a white woman has ever done but on the other hand doing anything positive is just white saviour syndrome."

Sadly this is the effect right now on white women who truly want to be helpful.

You can’t really be “allies to BME women” because BME women are not a gestalt collective. They don’t all necessarily believe or think the same way and thinking they are means you’ll be going round the houses. In fact the thinking all black people are x is the sort of thinking that’s got us into this mess in the first place.

This is why I really feel we should try to move beyond factionalism.

Women don't all think the same way either. Nevertheless there are men who I think of as allies. They're not necessarily doing anything world changing but they're the ones who listen when we tell them about our experiences, who don't interrupt or talk over us, who don't wring their hands, or make excuses or try and change the subject and who go away and think about what we tell them.

Likewise if there are BME women who feel they have been let down by white women then it feels like the least I can do is swallow my discomfort and listen. Please carry on op.

Well said Floisme.

@Floisme

Women don't all think the same way either. Nevertheless there are men who I think of as allies. They're not necessarily doing anything world changing but they're the ones who listen when we tell them about our experiences, who don't interrupt or talk over us, who don't wring their hands, or make excuses or try and change the subject and who go away and think about what we tell them.

Likewise if there are BME women who feel they have been let down by white women then it feels like the least I can do is swallow my discomfort and listen. Please carry on op.

Does that actually change anything though? Just listening to someone - what does that change?

Personally, I don't appreciate saviours swooping in and doing what they consider to be helpful because usually they have no real understanding of what is actually helpful. Because that's my belief I'm waiting to here the black community explain what they actually want to be done and how we can best help. Is that wrong? It just doesn't feel right for white people to be coming up with what we think are "solutions" but maybe I'm wrong.

All I can say to that is that when a man listens to me when I'm telling him of my experiences as a woman, then I feel something has shifted between us and that a start has been made. I'm sad to say it doesn't happen often, that I frequently come away feeling patronised, deflected, ignored and I hate the idea that this is being replicated here.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I agree. In fact I watched a interesting video clip of Malcom X telling people to beware of the white liberal who was too keen to take the lead rather than supporting.

Tbh I was at the Arch Bishop of Canterbury saying that the Church of England are looking at which religious statues need to be taken down in case they caused offence. A black friend of mine posted on facebook that she certainly didn’t want him to do that on her behalf and if anything it was cause a lot of unnecessary racial tension.

I think there is truth in white women sometimes hiding behind feminism/sexism to avoid dealing with race. Sometimes black women get stuck having to be quiet about being black or quiet about being a woman and prioritising their black experience - or rather, black men or their families.

@EveleftEden

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I agree. In fact I watched a interesting video clip of Malcom X telling people to beware of the white liberal who was too keen to take the lead rather than supporting.

Tbh I was at the Arch Bishop of Canterbury saying that the Church of England are looking at which religious statues need to be taken down in case they caused offence. A black friend of mine posted on facebook that she certainly didn’t want him to do that on her behalf and if anything it was cause a lot of unnecessary racial tension.

This is the difficulty isn't it? It feels wrong to sit back and wait for others to tell me what they need, and I've seen people say that this is a problem created by white people and so white people need to fix it - maybe that is correct. On the other hand though, if feels wrong for white people to decide what it is that needs fixing. Maybe what we decide to fix isn't what black people want fixing?

I have no idea what it feels like to be black. But I do have a disability and I know how I would feel, and indeed do feel, when able bodied people decide that they're going to "do" something to help me.

Listening is a good first step but it isn’t the final destination. Just do what you can in the space you occupy according to your values.

Listening is a good first step but it isn’t the final destination.

True. However it's a very important first step, one which many posters are reluctant to take while arguing at the same time that there's no issue.

As long as that first step is not taken , no one's going anywhere.

I’m white with a mixed race daughter - we’ve always had the view that black women have two prejudices to deal with - being black and being female - a double whammy - completely shit and more difficult, I think, than being just female - hope I haven’t offended - just an observed lived experience of relatives and friends.

If for the sake of argument are to believe biology is the main determinant for women's caring behaviours (which has not been confirmed by research), that would actually support the pro-FGM stance that argues that these practices enhance women's biologically ordained qualities, characteristics and behaviours

in that context, then what FGM is doing is not so much as 'enhancing' a natural tendency, but enforcing a set of codified behaviours, whether or not the individual woman is compelled to express them or not. A naturally, healthy body does not require surgery to function or express itself. I know someone who in her role of community nurse frequently meets women and girls who have suffered/are suffering real physical harm & distress as a result of FGM.

My personal view is that while certain traits & tendencies are sex based: natural expressions of genetic programming/bio-chemistry etc, there is a spectrum of possible expression within each sex. FGM over-rides that and imposes a certain standard of culturally accepted behaviour.

How do you propose George Floyd should have changed his mindset to survive

Nobody forced him into a life of petty criminality, or to holding a knife to the belly of a pregnant woman, did they? I'm sure he could have made different choices in his life - no matter how difficult his circumstances. We do all have individual agency and responsibility.

Recognising and supporting Black women to exercise their agency is about dismantling conditions that disproportionately favour White people

I don't think the mind set of having to 'dismantle' things all of the time really get us anywhere. My view is that education/higher education is the route to greater representation, and to having more of a voice and a stake in society.

@Dervel

You can’t really be “allies to BME women” because BME women are not a gestalt collective. They don’t all necessarily believe or think the same way and thinking they are means you’ll be going round the houses. In fact the thinking all black people are x is the sort of thinking that’s got us into this mess in the first place.

This is something Ayishat Akanbi said in that Triggernormity video - that being an ally just raises the question, an ally to...? And for herself, she said she doesn't want allies which feels condescending, but friends and people to talk to about things who will express their own views.

It's really quite a great interview, a lot of it resonated with me, especially talking about honesty as a part of being a good or just person.

Recognising and supporting Black women to exercise their agency is about dismantling conditions that disproportionately favour White people

i also suspect if a community is always pitting itself against/trying to dismantle the dominant 'cultural ethic' or system, then there is a good chance they will reject what passes for success in it.

I know as an ex-teacher that the attitude towards education/educational achievement/ 'mainstream' success can be very different depending on the specific 'community' you are looking at. That is not all the fault of 'white privilege' but often about cultural issues and norms within that community itself. That goes for white communities too.

The tone police are here! Yippee. Maybe I’m too angry? Black woman, angry...never heard that one before

There are lots of angry women here......it is the feminism board after all......but anger is not a good place in which to get stuck for anyone.
Shaking fists and shouting may energise, but it also traps people into a permanent state of grievance and opposition.

Mainstream white feminist campaigning has since the time of the empire had racist undertones

Do you mean cultural presumptions & under-tones? Feminism has always been about cultural/social change in order to liberate women from enforced gender segregation and sex based violence and oppression, not so much about race.

Nobody forced him into a life of petty criminality, or to holding a knife to the belly of a pregnant woman, did they?

None of which had anything to do with his murder, so irrelevant.

Nobody forced him into a life of petty criminality, or to holding a knife to the belly of a pregnant woman, did they?

Clearly someone needs a lesson in structural and institutional racism. Also none of that is relevant to his murder.

I don't think the mind set of having to 'dismantle' things all of the time really get us anywhere.

Spoken from a place of privaledge. Of course people benefitting from the systems don't want to see it dismantled and rebuilt with equality in mind. Same way as many men don't want to see the patriachy dismantled.

Considering there are black women out there calling for revenge on white women but acting like white men haven't done anything wrong, I don't see where we can go from here. I care about black women and girls but there is a total divide now that has never been more apparent to me. That divide will get bigger and we won't know how to overcome it.

The divide in feminism is caused by white women not listening to BAME women's struggle.

The divide in other areas is based on all people.