Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

The tone police are here! Yippee. Maybe I’m too angry? Black woman, angry...never heard that one before.

If I had a thread about men or trans doing x or y without specifying “not all” NONE of you saying I’m generalising would care.

Ask yourself why.

@missyoumuch the simple fact is you just don't know what everyone on the thread cares about.

Wouldn't it a better use of energy to engage with people & bring them round to wanting to end racism?

To join together?

@missyoumuch

How could we make feminism more inclusive?

Do we accept that there should be different factions & that's ok?

Serious questions.

@missyoumuch I would, and I have before. You cannot ever lump any group of people together. Not men, not transgenders, not women, not skin colour or religions.

There will ALWAYS be shitty people in every single one of those categories. E.g - To assume that all men are violent misogynists is harmful. It will alienate men from feminism and whether anyone will accept it or not, we need male support in order to bring about change.

To assume all white feminists are toxic and racist is outright harmful. It will alienate those white feminists that are neither, and whether you accept it or not you need white feminists to help black feminists. Though I will point out here, we also need black feminists to help white ones. We should be working together to bring about change.

I get that you’re angry but anger never brought about change. It brought violence and alienation and a continued circle of fighting.

Members of all groups can behave in oppressive and supportive terms. But I think there's a huge difference between "attacking people" and pointing out a systematic issue. Mainstream white feminist campaigning has since the time of the empire had racist undertones. Calling us to recognise that legacy isn't an attack. If women's campaigning against misogyny and sexism was simply dismissed by saying that not all men hate women, we wouldn't get anywhere on terms of real policy and legislative changes that need to be made to achieve greater equality in the society.

I get that you’re angry but anger never brought about change. It brought violence and alienation and a continued circle of fighting.
Emily Davidson literally threw herself under the king's horse.

Ask yourself why.

I think it's because it's easier to feel personally attacked when a prevalent negative trait is identified in people you share commonalities (e.g. sex, race) with or when you have close friends/relations/spouses that share those commonalities. I've been reading rebuttals to NAMALT and Not My Nigel as well as the Rules of Misogyny and comparing them to some of the responses you've received; it's been both edifying and revealing.

I think it shows that, whatever demographics we fit into, we're all human (a bold claim, I realise).

Thsnk you @ValancyRedfern

ValancyRedfern
Please write your MP about ensuring migrant women are protected in the new DV Bill. Southall Black Sisters have create d a template email. (Shamelessly copied from another thread, but I wanted to offer a practical way in which white women can support bame women today) southallblacksisters.org.uk/news/sbs-needs-your-help-to-protect-migrant-women-subject-to-domestic-abuse/

@Kay1341 and she was trampled on and died from her injuries for her troubles. In my experience you can’t continue to campaign for change when you’re dead.

Ladies - I have a full time job and two children. I do not have time to lead a revolution via MN on changing the hearts and minds of otherwise well meaning women who struggle to place their racial privilege in the context of non-white women and their issues.

I posted here partly to vent and partly to make people aware of how their are perceived.

The expectations many of your are placing on me are absurd and remind me of so many cases where minorities are asked to do the work for the majority to get them to stop being prejudiced.

Op I am working my way through your posts and the linked articles. I won't pretend - they make for some uncomfortable reading, but I am cringing at all these warnings to be nicer and to not get people's backs up. (If only I had a £ for every time a man has said that to me.....)

And at the idea that anger never brings about change.

@missyoumuch what and how should we change? What do you think will help?

@Kay1341

*There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself, for making changes to to your own life, your own mind set.

As i see it there will always be sexism and there will always be racism because wherever there is difference there will be some people who use that difference to make generalisations, or who use the difference as a focus for bullying or abuse. 'Tribalism' exists, and is a basic drive in people and in communities the world over.*

How do you propose George Floyd should have changed his mindset to survive?
I find the attitude that something exists, therefore it should not be addressed very pessimistic. The whole point is that people who face institutional disadvantage do not have the same scope to take responsibility for themselves to change their situations. Black people changing their mindset will not prevent police from killing Black people or hiring committees from choosing the white candidate.

What doesn't help GF or anyone else is a narrative that spends all this energy on defining racism and talking about who is racist.

It's possible that some sort of personal change in GF's life might have changed his fate. Not much any of us can do about that unless we knew him.

If we want to talk about policing in the US , there is I think a fairly clear set of questions to ask that would suggest a direction. One is what ties together victims of police violence - we know that it is that they live in poor neighbourhoods. We also know that black men are somewhat more likely to be victims - is this because the are more likely to be poor, or is there an additional effect beyond that - that would be useful to know in addressing racism specifically. Convincing the police not to be racist is a different task than dealing with the demographics of poverty.

We could also ask, why are the police being violent in poor neighbourhoods specifically? Why are there poor people? Why are the police being taught these models of policing rather than following models that are not so conflict based and militarised.

None of this requires long discussions about whether systemic racism is a thing or accusing people of white fragility, and all point to real policy directions.

@PurpleButterflyAway of course not, but saying anger doesn't lead to change completely dismisses the history of western feminism but also a lot of liberation and independence movements across the world. Why as White feminists were are more concerned about being alienated than with our complicity in alienating others through racism? It's Western feminism that has not been inclusive to women of colour, not the other way around.

@Gronky

Ask yourself why.

I think it's because it's easier to feel personally attacked when a prevalent negative trait is identified in people you share commonalities (e.g. sex, race) with or when you have close friends/relations/spouses that share those commonalities. I've been reading rebuttals to NAMALT and Not My Nigel as well as the Rules of Misogyny and comparing them to some of the responses you've received; it's been both edifying and revealing.

I think it shows that, whatever demographics we fit into, we're all human (a bold claim, I realise).

The supposed rules of misogyny are basically all logical fallacies or sticks to beat people with without engaging with what they've said. As is the claim of NAMALT 95% of the time.

So they don’t help black women because of men?
Clearly not what I said. It's about the patriarchy.
I also have a job and children, I spend a lot of time supporting women of all types. I'm happy to engage but if you are just going to write me off as racist, and not even try to understand what I'm saying, then its not worth my time to post.

Female black mother. Triple whammy on expectations of being everyone's support human.

Venting anonymously on MN is good.

Justifiable anger noted.

None of this requires long discussions about whether systemic racism is a thing or accusing people of white fragility, and all point to real policy directions.

How is one to address these questions without recognising the institutional racism acted out through law enforcement practices, welfare provision and urbwn policies which make Black people disproportionately vulnerable to violence? My response was directly aimed at an argument that instead of policy solutions and structural changes Black people should consider changing their mindset.

@merrymouse

The only thing I can do to be an ally to black women is to read a book and nod. How can anyone tell if I've read a book? They can't.

Come on get with the programme - nobody can tell if you read a book, but the important thing is to post a picture on instagram (hygge accessories in winter, beach body photo in summer) and talk about 'learning', as though it was impossible for any white person to notice racism until 25th May 2020. Then you can be an 'ally'.

(Sorry for rant - I have a real problem with 'ally').

Not yet RTFT but this.

One thing I'm struggling to understand is how come so many people seem not to have been aware of racism and structural racism until now?

And then I wonder if this is right, it's shocking, but how come they weren't aware?

And then I wonder if this is right, it's shocking, but how come they weren't aware?

Possibly because many people are struggling themselves and are distracted by their own difficulties?

How many people are aware of the difficulties and barriers and difficulties faced by people different to them? I honestly believe that unless you are affected, or have a close personal connection with someone else affected, then you aren't that aware and don't have an understanding of what it's like.

Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint.

For the sake of context to those who might be wondering, these concepts and phrases stem out of something called Critical Race Theory that formed in the USA.

For critique on the concepts underpinning anti-racism movement / CRT, here are some links from a few different perspectives and political standpoints. There is a lot of ongoing debate between black scholars, academics and thinkers on this topic.

Barriers to black progress: Structural, Cultural, or Both?

How anti-racism hurts black people - John McWhorter

unherd.com/2018/10/clr-james-rejected-posturing-identity-politics/

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/17/ta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west

newdiscourses.com/2020/06/do-better-than-critical-race-theory/

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

@missyoumuchwhat and how should we change? What do you think will help?

That's not remotely clear to me beyond I should accept collective guilt for every bad thing a white woman has ever done but on the other hand doing anything positive is just white saviour syndrome.

@Kay1341

None of this requires long discussions about whether systemic racism is a thing or accusing people of white fragility, and all point to real policy directions.

How is one to address these questions without recognising the institutional racism acted out through law enforcement practices, welfare provision and urbwn policies which make Black people disproportionately vulnerable to violence? My response was directly aimed at an argument that instead of policy solutions and structural changes Black people should consider changing their mindset.

I think you are taking that comment out of context, mainly. I don't think it was really intended to say that there shouldn't be concrete discussions about political action.

But as for finding those concrete policy directions, nothing I've seen of CRT or identity politics makes me think they create that discussion or enable that change. Quite the opposite, they tend to deflect from it and obscure exploration of it. "Institutional racism" as an explanation is just an effect masquerading as a cause. Which IMO is why CRT is feted by many of the elite and corporate bodies- it allows them to look with it and concerned without requiring action.

The supposed rules of misogyny are basically all logical fallacies or sticks to beat people with without engaging with what they've said. As is the claim of NAMALT 95% of the time.

It's a shame they're applied that way because there is a kernel of truth hiding within.