Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

Of course it happens! You just can't say "all" if anyone does anything. It's stereotyping. That's the whole issue with racism!

I do what I can to support women, including mentoring at work and putting the ladder down.
I am not a racist.
I recognise white privilege exists.

I don't have capacity to do any more at the moment.

I also have mentioned in my earlier posts, I have observed in my career that white women who reach positions of power tend to then support women who look like them. All this while running the company’s women's network and speaking at conferences on breaking the glass ceiling.

I think you attribute more influence to these women than they actually have. It's likely to be the people the men sponsor who get promoted- and if they are women, myexperience is they will be unthreatening women. Its racist that black women are in the threatening category - but I think outspoken women, openly feminist women, working class women, mothers, GNC women are also all there too.

Unfortunately a white, well groomed, acting appropriately with female socialisation, childless woman such less threatening to the patriarchy.

I am massively cartooning, obviously there are exceptions. One of the most inspirational talks I've ever seen was by a black woman running a company (Anne Marie Imafidon from Stemettes)

@QuentinWinters

I also have mentioned in my earlier posts, I have observed in my career that white women who reach positions of power tend to then support women who look like them. All this while running the company’s women's network and speaking at conferences on breaking the glass ceiling.

I think you attribute more influence to these women than they actually have. It's likely to be the people the men sponsor who get promoted- and if they are women, myexperience is they will be unthreatening women. Its racist that black women are in the threatening category - but I think outspoken women, openly feminist women, working class women, mothers, GNC women are also all there too.

Unfortunately a white, well groomed, acting appropriately with female socialisation, childless woman such less threatening to the patriarchy.

I am massively cartooning, obviously there are exceptions. One of the most inspirational talks I've ever seen was by a black woman running a company (Anne Marie Imafidon from Stemettes)

So they don’t help black women because of men?

Jesus Christ.

OP - has your current employer or its women's network proposed any action/ changes in light of the recent events? Is it going to look at its staff progression and recruitment practices? Or review its equality and diversity practices. It should be. My workplace is doing this, (well it says it is) with input from all staff and stakeholders.

However, I work in the public sector, my workplace does have a very recent history of Black women heading the organisation, has many Black HoDs, and currently an Asian woman is at the helm, so maybe it's very different from a corporate environment, and I have a more positive view of women Including ethnic minority women getting to the top from this experience.

It's so ironic how many (presumably) white women on here are basically saying their equivalent of #NAMALT they really can't understand the irony of it

NAMALT is often used as put down on here, for any woman who doesn't view things in such rigid, necessarily oppositional ways.
Not everyone want to be involved in an eternal battle of the sexes or the races, so that argument doesn't work on here. In spite of what some seem to think, this board is actually quite diverse. And it is better for that, in my view.

I think this is very true. I've been accused of being a man on here many times - I'm not, I'm a white middle aged woman with a disability. Op assumed she was called a man because of her race, yet it's pretty much par for the course that anyone who presents a different argument on here is called a man, when the discussion has nothing at all to do with race

That is the worst thing about this board, for me. I only came to it a couple of years ago as a result of the upcoming proposed amendments to the GRA - as it has been just about the only on-line space in which there has been the possibility for discussion on this issue. Which has been great.

But there is a long standing group of self identified radical feminists who can seem very intolerant of disagreement on certain issues. Everything has to come back to 'global' statements, such as 'Male Privilege' or 'Male violence' - with women positioned as perpetual victims of the patriarchy, albeit with superior moral virtue. It can often seem quite hateful and relentlessly oppositional. Certainly to me.

And while we can all agree that most gender roles and stereotypes are socially manufactured, we don't all agree that there are never any behaviours, attitudes, tendencies and so on, that arise out of the consequences of biology, and women's role in childbirth and mothering.

The problem with such rigid identity politics, whether it be based on sex, race, or any other grouping - is that it traps one in perpetual conflict, always positioning whole groups of other people as the enemy. Getting stuck in anger is not the goal of liberation movements, in my view, even if it is often an inevitable stage on the journey.

@Justhadathought

I don't agree that transwomen suffer from 'sexism' in the same way at all. Baby girls, in some cultures, are killed, or abandoned, at birth - nothing to do with 'gender identity'; and young girls in other cultures, are subject to FGM - not something a young male is likely to experience ( yes, there is circumcision, but that is not of quite the same order, even though important)

As someone who works on this field, I would argue it has everything to do with gender identity. In FGM practicing contexts gender and womanhood are socially constructed so that a woman is not a complete woman without FGM (through beliefs that girl becomes a woman, FGM enforces women with gendered characteristics of caregiving, submissiveness, chastity and obedience, and makes their genitalia align with cultural perceptions of "normal" female bodies).
Whereas when these women move to non-practicing contexts, they face compeltely opposite views as their FGM status is constructed so that they are missing parts of their body and sexuality. Whereas uncut women in practicing context would be viewed as dirty and unruly. So the same biological body, can become subject to different treatment depending on it's socio-cultural context. In terms of men, although the circumcision debate is ongoing, they also are subject to other violent practices because of the way their bodies in certain cultural context are viewed to manifest gendered characteristics. Face scaring is one of these practices.

When it comes to FGM and White women's voice, Black women have been challenging the long-standing presumption that they cannot speak for themselves. So White women campaign for Black women's issues, without working to dismantle the barriers Black women face in being heard on the society.

I think feminism, in some respects, certainly in the western liberal democracieshas become a bit indulgent ( which is why I no longer really identify myself asa feminist). There are now equal civil and legal rights and women in a whole range of roles and occupations, in ways there certainly weren't when I was younger. Yes, though, there are still issues around pornography and prostitution - both which hinge on the sexual differences, in my view, between women and men.

When I look out at the wider world and even to certain communities of women here in the U.k I see that many women are still subject to treatments and oppressions by their own communities on account of them being female. It is their human rights and liberations which we need to focus on.

However, if you are telling people not to' interfere' or speak out because you are a 'white feminist' and this is not your culture, so mind your own business.....what are you to do?

All of the TRA activism, for example, which many in the BLM movement seem to support, will cause direct, and immediate, oppression of women from some communities - who would be even more reduced in their public life should males be permitted into their spaces, services, sports.

@Justhadathought but there are literal black women saying this is there experience with feminists, you can't just say it doesn't happen because you think it doesn't happen

Yes, but you cannot make global statements about whole groups of people - in this case 'feminists'. Have you spoken with all 'feminists'? No, of course not. Identity politics really is counter-productive and tends to trap people in rigid group identities, with accompanying dogma.

Please write your MP about ensuring migrant women are protected in the new DV Bill. Southall Black Sisters have create d a template email. (Shamelessly copied from another thread, but I wanted to offer a practical way in which white women can support bame women today) southallblacksisters.org.uk/news/sbs-needs-your-help-to-protect-migrant-women-subject-to-domestic-abuse/

Sorry I don't know how to make clicky

It was interesting for me because I acquired a nerve root injury in my spine due to a medical error. I was crying in severe pain during a procedure but I wasn't listened to enough - I was given more pain relief but the cause of the severe pain wasn't investigated until it was too late and the injury was permanent. So, are our two experiences connected? Was the pp not listened to because of her race? Were we both not listened to because of our sex and race didn't come into it? Was it a failing on behalf of our hcps unconnected to our personal characteristics eg was their arrogance on the part of the hcps, did their egos get in the way? Was it none of these and they were just unfortunate accidents

my father has been unfortunate enough to receive really terrible, unprofessional and almost downright negligent treatment by various arms of the NHS in recent years. He puts it down to his age, and thinks he gets written off and not taken seriously because he's over 70.

Yes, but you cannot make global statements about whole groups of people - in this case 'feminists'. Have you spoken with all 'feminists'?
This kind of resistance to self-reflexivity seems to be underpinned by the same logic as White men's defensiveness in the face of BLM. There has been a lot of noise made about how "we're not racist" and how "not everyone is racist" at the expense of engaging in discussion on how racism is still prevalent, how we benefit from it and how it should be dismantled. Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint.

FGM practicing contexts gender and womanhood are socially constructed so that a woman is not a complete woman without FGM (through beliefs that girl becomes a woman, FGM enforces women with gendered characteristics of caregiving, submissiveness, chastity and obedience, and makes their genitalia align with cultural perceptions of "normal" female bodies)

Yes, but without biological difference, without the female biology, than one cannot be subject to these pressures and manipulations in the first instance. Yes, 'womanhood' and 'manhood' are modelled on certain cultural expectations, but those expectations and models arise from the very real fact of biological differences, and from the fact that females will tend to be more nurturing, caring and so on. Because biology is actually a lot more primal than many are prepared to admit - certainly in some feminist circles.

So White women campaign for Black women's issues, without working to dismantle the barriers Black women face in being heard on the society

So, black women have to take responsibility for their own 'conditions' then. Is that what you are saying? If so, then I agree. But you can't have it both ways. It's either "we need your support", or"we need you to mind your own business".

What would you say the barriers to 'black women' being heard are? Black women are very diverse; from different communities, different value systems and different cultural practices.

Sorry I don't know how to make clicky

To highlight a paragraph for response, you copy and paste and put an asterix at each end. That should 'bold' it.

[quote ValancyRedfern]Please write your MP about ensuring migrant women are protected in the new DV Bill. Southall Black Sisters have create d a template email. (Shamelessly copied from another thread, but I wanted to offer a practical way in which white women can support bame women today) southallblacksisters.org.uk/news/sbs-needs-your-help-to-protect-migrant-women-subject-to-domestic-abuse/[/quote]
Thanks!

This kind of resistance to self-reflexivity seems to be underpinned by the same logic as White men's defensiveness in the face of BLM. There has been a lot of noise made about how "we're not racist" and how "not everyone is racist" at the expense of engaging in discussion on how racism is still prevalent, how we benefit from it and how it should be dismantled. Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint

You might find it reflexive, but I believe it to be true. Making these big, sweeping statements about dismantling 'white privilege'/'Male privilege' end up being totally circular and meaningless.
There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself, for making changes to to your own life, your own mind set.

As i see it there will always be sexism and there will always be racism because wherever there is difference there will be some people who use that difference to make generalisations, or who use the difference as a focus for bullying or abuse. 'Tribalism' exists, and is a basic drive in people and in communities the world over.

The obvious goal is equal civil and legal rights.......beyond that I tend to think we have gone pretty much as far as we can. Beyond that you have individual and cultural differences, values, priorities and so on.
Multi-culturalism can enrich a society, but it can also heighten conflict between different groups. and even larger groupings, such as 'the black community' are themselves really quite diverse.

Yes, but without biological difference, without the female biology, than one cannot be subject to these pressures and manipulations in the first instance. Yes, 'womanhood' and 'manhood' are modelled on certain cultural expectations, but those expectations and models arise from the very real fact of biological differences, and from the fact that females will tend to be more nurturing, caring and so on. Because biology is actually a lot more primal than many are prepared to admit - certainly in some feminist circles.

That does not explain why these forms of violence are context specific, if they arise from universal biological differences. If for the sake of argument are to believe biology is the main determinant for women's caring behaviours (which has not been confirmed by research), that would actually support the pro-FGM stance that argues that these practices enhance women's biologically ordained qualities, characteristics and behaviours.

What would you say the barriers to 'black women' being heard are? Black women are very diverse; from different communities, different value systems and different cultural practices.
I absolutely agree there is huge amount if diversity. But Black women statistically face far greater disadvantage in in comparison to White women in taking on lead decision-making roles and senior management positions, entering higher education and building careers in the labour market. Black women as asylum seekers and refugees also lack most voting rights and right to stand for office, even most FGM affected women come from refugee backgrounds. Recognising and supporting Black women to exercise their agency is about dismantling conditions that disproportionately favour White people.

*There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself, for making changes to to your own life, your own mind set.

As i see it there will always be sexism and there will always be racism because wherever there is difference there will be some people who use that difference to make generalisations, or who use the difference as a focus for bullying or abuse. 'Tribalism' exists, and is a basic drive in people and in communities the world over.*

How do you propose George Floyd should have changed his mindset to survive?
I find the attitude that something exists, therefore it should not be addressed very pessimistic. The whole point is that people who face institutional disadvantage do not have the same scope to take responsibility for themselves to change their situations. Black people changing their mindset will not prevent police from killing Black people or hiring committees from choosing the white candidate.

@Justhadathought

• You might find it reflexive, but I believe it to be true. Making these big, sweeping statements about dismantling 'white privilege'/'Male privilege' end up being totally circular and meaningless. There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself, for making changes to to your own life, your own mind set.*

Yes I’ll change my mindset to reduce my increased risk of maternal mortality. It’s in our little brown heads I guess.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-47115305

This kind of resistance to self-reflexivity seems to be underpinned by the same logic as White men's defensiveness in the face of BLM. There has been a lot of noise made about how "we're not racist" and how "not everyone is racist" at the expense of engaging in discussion on how racism is still prevalent, how we benefit from it and how it should be dismantled. Not being racist is not the same as being anti-racist. When societal structures privilege Whiteness, there is no neutral standpoint.

On another thread I raised the point that BLMUK tweeted an antiZionist tweet and that a group who supports BLM,BLM Oxford used an anti Semitic image on its Facebook page. I was told that one person tweeting something, even if in behalf of an organisation, should not be assumed to be representative of everyone who supports that organisation. So, would you apply your message to BLM too then? Are people dismissing claims of anti semitism against BLM doing what you are accusing white feminists of doing?

It seems no one is blameless in any of this and the adage "when you point a finger four more point back at you" seems fitting here.

Clearly, we all, no matter what sex, race, religion have biases. Why can't we all have respectful, honest conversations about them?

Yes I’ll change my mindset to reduce my increased risk of maternal mortality. It’s in our little brown heads I guess.

Has anyone said that? Several explanations for the higher rate of complications were given in that article. It's multifactorial isn't it and includes poverty, social factors, attitudes of healthcare workers, including those from the BAME community towards black women. No one is saying it's in your head.

I think grouping any people together based on the colour of their skin is wrong and will definitely get people’s backs up.

You can’t say all white women are the same - we’re not. You will have racist white women and non racist white women. You’ll have white women who support black women and white women who won’t.

Attacking people will get you absolutely nowhere, and even if you’d not meant your OP as an attack, that’s the way it comes across. You’ll lose people’s support that way. It would be like someone telling you all black women are the same, they all act the same etc. It’s just not true, and it helps no one to view an entire group of people as exactly the same.

I wish you the best of luck with getting the change you want though. Maybe this is the year we can all just learn to coexist without hatred.