Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

For years we were told FGM was a cultural issue, and to criticise it was racist. White women couldn't go there.
Now we know it is a woman and girls issue, and many white women support anti-FGM campaigners (see Twitter) and it is illegal (I know - nearly zero convictions a failing) see UK Govt safeguarding guidelines - suspected planned FGM MUST be reported, it is illegal not to report it. A legal duty of care to the mainly black girls and women it affects.

Re: women's rights vs black women's rights. Divide and conquer. TRA affects all women. My hijab-wearing British-Asian colleague is fully clued up on how TRA affects her: risk of males in women-only swimming session; she can no longer go swimming. Risk of males in Brownies; she can't send her daughter, just in case, a male is there.
When I wrote to complain about changes to GRA, I used her lived experience in my letter to my MP, in my examples of what was wrong with the proposed legislation. She also wrote to her MP.
Some women of all colours support each other, especially when we share the same physical space and speak with each other.

But sexism is real. And affects half the world

Have you ever considered that some of what is labelled 'sexism' is actually just a recognition of natural biological differences, and differences that result out of that - such as child care responsibilities/strength differentials and so on?

Different cultures and societies deal differently with these natural differences. Some societies entrap people in gender roles in a very rigid way, on account of birth sex; others ( particularly western liberal democracies) less so.

I don't agree that transwomen suffer from 'sexism' in the same way at all. Baby girls, in some cultures, are killed, or abandoned, at birth - nothing to do with 'gender identity'; and young girls in other cultures, are subject to FGM - not something a young male is likely to experience ( yes, there is circumcision, but that is not of quite the same order, even though important).

Women have suffered/ continue to suffer from certain social discriminations because of their differences - those resulting from biology - and from the roles/inclinations that arise from that.

We'll never be rid of 'sexism' until the day that sex no longer exists. However, if you judge sexism to be the treatment and characterisation of women & men purely on account of their biological sex, and not on the basis of their character, skill, talent and so on.....then yes!

Sexism is a two way street, just as racism is. Women can be incredibly sexist about men, too.

You don't see these feminist housewives ever giving a hoot about black or Asian women's issues. While they're arguing over some dude at work calling them sexy, some poor Asian woman is having her right to pick her husband taken away. Another black woman is going through GM. Just saying

What a load of narrow minded rubbish. you need to get out of your bunker. What is this 'feminist housewife' thing, anyway? sounds like a bit of a blanket characterisation which is every bit as prejudiced as any other.

In my experience which goes back quite a way, women have always supported their friends regardless of skin colour of religious background. Only when you move in narrow circles do you not see any of that.

We get defensive because we don't think we are like that.
Then, if we think it through we realize that Black women lose out on both BLM and Feminism. Pretty effing enraging when you think Black Live Matter was formed by three Black women, and may I just say STORME DELARVERIE among many others who did the work and walked their talk every effing day.
The very least we can do is hear what Black women are saying and support their voices and their work.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

What I found really interesting was that a lot of the arguments against OP have been things that we'd quickly shut down if it they were used against feminism.

Not all white women... not all men
This isn't a problem.
If it's a problem it's not that bad.
What about...
I've never seen this/encountered it..
What about black women that say the opposite or don't feel oppressed... similar to the happy prostitute myth, wolf whistling is a compliment etc.
I,personally don't do this ... I'm a good guy or not my Nigel

And so on.

These comments are completely unacceptable and get shut down straight away when it comes to sexism, misogyny etc. so why are they the go to in a discussion about racism?

They might be, although that doesn't mean the dismissal is valid. It's pretty common to see people shut down a totally logical question or objection without really thinking about what is being said.

And you are being really reductive too. The idea that there are a variety of views in the black community, and that some include challenging ideas like privilege, isn't really the same as saying, oh, some prostitutes don't feel oppressed so prostitution must be ok. (Though, actually you do need to address that if you want to say prostitution is oppressive, it's a relevant question about prostitution.)

The point is the OP is here suggestion that if white women don't seem to accept her narrative around race, they must be ignoring black women or closing their eyes etc. But the discussions I see here on MN about race are actually very much the same things I see from the BAME community themselves, not just individuals, but academics, activists etc. There are lots of people who reject CRT and identity politics.

Why do all white people need to accept that one particular way of thinking about race when racialised communities don't?

Well I haven't read the full thread but id like to address the OP.

I am white and I agree that race is an issue definitely left out of some communities of feminists. White privilege is real and we also need to, as feminists, be able to address and bring awareness to issues that either solely or disproportionately affect BME women. For example it's my understanding that in the UK black women especially are substantially more likely to suffer from medical issues during pregnancy and birth.

So while feminism has it's own crosses to bear and the fight for racial equality deals with separate issues, sometimes they conflate and as a feminist surely it's important to consider issues that affect other demographics of women as much as those that affect the more typical societal perception of the typical feminist white woman?

And reading the first article, I agree that it is sadly a common knee jerk reaction to feel personally attacked when you are not the victim. I have seen much of this since the GF protests, even in subtle and seemingly non harmful ways. But it is harmful and it's flawed logic, I feel it really comes down to a strange sense of pride and it annoys me that it gets in the way of discussion and awareness. It has long been the case that crimes even against young girls and young women, the 2 demographics usually the most sensationalised by the media, are still under reported when the victim is black. How can we stand by while this happens?

It's hard though because being frank, I'm also very aware of seeming patronising or "white knight"-ish when I get too over passionate about these issues and I don't want that to be made an issue, as again it detracts from the actual discussion of what is important.

The point is the OP is here suggestion that if white women don't seem to accept her narrative around race, they must be ignoring black women or closing their eyes etc.

I'm not entirely sure it was about accepting everything when OP started,but rather about listening. She was questioned over being a troll or a man and many other dismissive things.

You can listen to someone even if you disagree. You might refuse to engage or try and give counter arguments. You might change your mind,you might not. But a lot of the comments have been similar to putting your fingers in your years and shouting "La la la la I can't hear you".

The similarities I pointed out earlier made me very uncomfortable, I can't even imagine how they made OP feel.

@Puppymummy20

All those saying which Black women should we listen to, they don’t all agree on everything, are presumably fine when men ask which women they should listen to, they don’t all agree on everything.

I am also gobsmacked at the posters here who are using well-known tactics of anti-feminist denial (not all men/loads of women aren’t feminists/there’s nothing we can do about it anyway, etc etc) but aiming them at race. If systemic patriarchy exists why is it so hard to believe that systemic white supremacy does too?

It's entirely reasonable for men to consider that women speak with different views, and if some women are telling them that's not so, they are wrong.

Lots of women don't think patriarchy is a thing as such, and isn't responsible for differences between male and female social roles.

It's a fallacy to say that just because someone believes in x, the should also believe in y. Since x isn't y, you have to justify both separately, both in terms of empirical observations and in terms of theoretical explanations.

The big difference as I see it between sex and race is that race is a clear and distinct biological reality with consequences. Men and women have different bodies, and even if the world was perfectly ethical egalitarian those would lead to different outcomes for men and women. Given that it isn't perfectly ethical and egalitarian there is a tendency for those differences to be translated into exploitation. And then, women themselves disagree about things like what differences are exploitive, or how to address that, etc.

So it's entirely possible to reject patriarchy as an abstraction but still see that women's bodies are the material principle that determines the nature of many of women's social problems. Personally I think this is a much more robust way to think about it because it is far more rooted in the material principle. "Patriarchy" can mean whatever people want and often its obscures looking for the real and specific origins of a problem which could be acted upon.

Race however is a construct in a much more fundamental way. There is no real reason a person with darker skin should have different social outcome than a person with lighter skin. It was chosen, created as a category, for another reason, in order to support a very particular economic and political situation. So that is the real organising structure of race. And unlike sex differences, race as a category could be totally deconstructed under the right conditions.

All of which is to say - there are all kinds of reasons people might think quite differently about race and sex, and there is nothing hypocritical about treating them and thinking about them differently.

As a feminist surely it's important to consider issues that affect other demographics of women as much as those that affect the more typical societal perception of the typical feminist white woman

Less with 'typical'. From my experience, women have always supported other women going right back to the foundations of the women's movement - even as early as the 1920/30's.

This narrative of 'white feminism' is something I simply don't recognise -as if it is something discrete from women's rights generally. Something separate from focusing on the experience of women everywhere; from any culture in which women experience repression on account of their sex.

From personal experience, as one example, I supported a Sikh friend who had refuse an arranged marriage, and had subsequently run away from home ( early 1980's). Her father would come searching for her in the corridors of our college; threatening to kill the family and himself if she did not return.

when she finally relented and agreed to a match, i was not invited to the wedding because i was a 'shameful' single parent. as it happened, she went on to divorce that husband, and now lives a single woman, having adopted an abandoned baby girl from the Punjab in India.

I just don't recognise this characterisation of 'white feminism' as a defining thing. Feminism is about centring the experiences of women wherever they may.

It's so ironic how many (presumably) white women on here are basically saying their equivalent of #NAMALT they really can't understand the irony of it.

OP I'm with you and have always felt that as a BAME woman it's difficult to be engaged in feminist discussions because they tend to be focused on white women

I’m sorry you’ve experience that. I totally believe it, although it’s not my personal experience. I wonder if there is also a class dimension. My experience is that more upper or middle class women live in predominantly mono cultural areas, whereas working class women are more likely to live in multicultural areas. So may be more aware and more likely to have seen racism happening overtly with their friends and family.

@Linguistically

For those saying they want to hear diverse black voices, do you not also acknowledge that we tend to hold an element of seeking out voices that validate our own? I find whiteness tends to centre BAME voices that echo their own thoughts, almost as a way of saying 'Hah! One of you agrees with me, therefore I'm right.' It has been used as a means to divide BAME voices and pit them against each other.

I can certainly say that as a Muslim woman who wears a hijab, it is very difficult to have my voice heard in white feminist circles. But my Muslim friends who advocate for removing the hijab (they're perfectly entitled to their view, of course) are lauded and given wide platforms, and I do suspect it is because they are saying exactly what white audiences want to hear.

Yes, I think that happens all the time. It's something we all have to watch out for.

Though there isn't so much a problem with agreeing with those you agree with - it's more a matter of acknowledging that there are actually different experiences and viewpoints and considering those while developing their own view. And also I think respecting the others view and experience, even if you come to different conclusions.

My take has been that in the last 10 years, maybe more, it's tended to be the progressive left that has pushed this view that there is one black voice or one indigenous voice or one womens voice. Typically conservatives have been better at acknowledging that there are differences within these communities.

I'm not sure why that is, but Adolph Reed I know suggests that this has been about the rise in many of these groups of an educated managerial class, many of whom make a living as activists. And they also tend to have positive relationships with interests with a lot of money in government or business.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

The point is the OP is here suggestion that if white women don't seem to accept her narrative around race, they must be ignoring black women or closing their eyes etc.

I'm not entirely sure it was about accepting everything when OP started,but rather about listening. She was questioned over being a troll or a man and many other dismissive things.

You can listen to someone even if you disagree. You might refuse to engage or try and give counter arguments. You might change your mind,you might not. But a lot of the comments have been similar to putting your fingers in your years and shouting "La la la la I can't hear you".

The similarities I pointed out earlier made me very uncomfortable, I can't even imagine how they made OP feel.

Yes, sometimes people here are far too ready to accuse people of trolling or being a man.

I will be somewhat ironic here given the topic and say, that may not be about race specially, because I see it happen to posters quite a lot in FWR and I myself have been accused of being a man.

There is a certain type of person who seems to think that if you don't say what they expect, you must not really think that way. They are, I imagine, the kind f people who think that there is really only one way to see a situation and anyone who says they don't must be fibbing for some reason of their own.

However - the thing about listening to experiences is this - you can listen, and even believe the person is being entirely truthful, but not agree with their assessment of the situation. Even with pretty simple things, two people can interpret the exact same situation differently. And while someone with little experience of racism might be too inclined to dismiss it, the corollary of that is someone who does more often experience racism may interpret situations as racist which aren't. Because both are seeing it through the lens of their experiences.

However - the thing about listening to experiences is this - you can listen, and even believe the person is being entirely truthful, but not agree with their assessment of the situation. Even with pretty simple things, two people can interpret the exact same situation differently. And while someone with little experience of racism might be too inclined to dismiss it, the corollary of that is someone who does more often experience racism may interpret situations as racist which aren't. Because both are seeing it through the lens of their experiences.

I think this is very true. I've been accused of being a man on here many times - I'm not, I'm a white middle aged woman with a disability. Op assumed she was called a man because of her race, yet it's pretty much par for the course that anyone who presents a different argument on here is called a man, when the discussion has nothing at all to do with race.

It was interesting to me to read s po account of suffering an injury due to hcps not listening to her and she attributed it to race.

It was interesting for me because I acquired a nerve root injury in my spine due to a medical error. I was crying in severe pain during a procedure but I wasn't listened to enough - I was given more pain relief but the cause of the severe pain wasn't investigated until it was too late and the injury was permanent. So, are our two experiences connected? Was the pp not listened to because of her race? Were we both not listened to because of our sex and race didn't come into it? Was it a failing on behalf of our hcps unconnected to our personal characteristics eg was their arrogance on the part of the hcps, did their egos get in the way? Was it none of these and they were just unfortunate accidents?

As Goosefoot says, we all view our experiences through our own lens don't we? If I attribute a different reason for my injury does that make me wrong?

@GreytExpectations

It's so ironic how many (presumably) white women on here are basically saying their equivalent of #NAMALT they really can't understand the irony of it.

OP I'm with you and have always felt that as a BAME woman it's difficult to be engaged in feminist discussions because they tend to be focused on white women

@Goosefoot within black communities, there are a variety of viewpoints. I don’t know any black people personally who disagree that racism exists and is fairly prevalent. However people differ on the responses. Some think if you focus on education and a middle class career, that’s the best way to overcome bias. Some people think being Afrocentric in hairstyle and dress is very important, while others say blend in and straighten your hair. Some want to protest, some say better to keep your head down and not make waves.

But if you go into a white feminist space and talk about racism, you will have some women denying systemic racism or implicit bias before you can even get to how to respond to it. It’s a different starting point.

sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/but-some-of-us-are-brave-questions-on-race-and-feminism/ A good blogpost.

Goosefoot within black communities, there are a variety of viewpoints. I don’t know any black people personally who disagree that racism exists and is fairly prevalent. However people differ on the responses. Some think if you focus on education and a middle class career, that’s the best way to overcome bias. Some people think being Afrocentric in hairstyle and dress is very important, while others say blend in and straighten your hair. Some want to protest, some say better to keep your head down and not make waves.

I'm not sure I've heard many people at all deny that racism exists, but I've heard a number from various racial profiles disagree that systemic racism is real, or more often that it is not a useful way to talk about what it is trying to talk about.

The thing is, a phrase like "systemic racism" is an abstraction, it's trying to describe certain things it believes occur and have a specific kind of origin and relationship to each other. But is it really grouping those things in a way that is helpful?

I think a big part of the reason you may be seeing this now is many social justice causes, including feminism, have been very invaded by critical theory and identity politics. Those are a very specific way of thinking about the material conditions they are referring to, among black communities, among women, whatever. Lot's of people dislike this analytical approach, but the way it tends to treat it's critics, no matter what their disagreement, is to call them bigots of some kind. In fact they may be very concerned about injustices but they don't think they are being described with enough precision.

Feminism has however begun to push back somewhat against critical theory. There is still a lot of it around, but largely because of gender ideology a fair number of feminists suddenly had their eyes open to the problems it has. And once you see this, you begin to see it embedded everywhere you find identity politics, creating all kinds of problems, and you start to question the language and the narrative.

So many of these feminists are not going to just accept a lens or language convention that they see as so destructive in other areas.

have lots of the same concerns as you, op, and constantly dismayed by lack of analysis around race on MN

It comes down to principles, and if you are anti-patriarchal without being anti- racist, or committed to racial justice but homophobic, then all you really are is self-interested and not an ally or proponent of freedom for all oppressed groups

I think this is what BLM is getting at in its 'inclusive' manifesto. Although I am dismayed at centring of trans with no proper analysis

I do notice that many of the best GC voices that I follow are white feminists and not particularly analytical or thoughtful about race (Julie bindel/ Hadley freeman). Meanwhile, those who loudly support trans rights (eg Owen jones/ ash sarkar) are brilliant on racial justice

It jars with me as a bme woman and would be v interested to hear recommendations of other black GC voices

@Goosefoot

Goosefoot within black communities, there are a variety of viewpoints. I don’t know any black people personally who disagree that racism exists and is fairly prevalent. However people differ on the responses. Some think if you focus on education and a middle class career, that’s the best way to overcome bias. Some people think being Afrocentric in hairstyle and dress is very important, while others say blend in and straighten your hair. Some want to protest, some say better to keep your head down and not make waves.

I'm not sure I've heard many people at all deny that racism exists, but I've heard a number from various racial profiles disagree that systemic racism is real, or more often that it is not a useful way to talk about what it is trying to talk about.

The thing is, a phrase like "systemic racism" is an abstraction, it's trying to describe certain things it believes occur and have a specific kind of origin and relationship to each other. But is it really grouping those things in a way that is helpful?

I think a big part of the reason you may be seeing this now is many social justice causes, including feminism, have been very invaded by critical theory and identity politics. Those are a very specific way of thinking about the material conditions they are referring to, among black communities, among women, whatever. Lot's of people dislike this analytical approach, but the way it tends to treat it's critics, no matter what their disagreement, is to call them bigots of some kind. In fact they may be very concerned about injustices but they don't think they are being described with enough precision.

Feminism has however begun to push back somewhat against critical theory. There is still a lot of it around, but largely because of gender ideology a fair number of feminists suddenly had their eyes open to the problems it has. And once you see this, you begin to see it embedded everywhere you find identity politics, creating all kinds of problems, and you start to question the language and the narrative.

So many of these feminists are not going to just accept a lens or language convention that they see as so destructive in other areas.

It’s not even that deep Goosefoot.

Many white women who align themselves with feminism instinctively deny that racism exists when confronted with examples of it. They minimise the experiences of minority women when it’s a racial issue, but if the same woman speaks of discrimination due to sex she will be received very differently.

I also have mentioned in my earlier posts, I have observed in my career that white women who reach positions of power tend to then support women who look like them. All this while running the company’s women's network and speaking at conferences on breaking the glass ceiling.

Hence the question about being real allies.

This is not an academic debate to me but based on my experiences.

I don't think women in business are necessarily feminists or committed to helping others, giving talks about breaking the glass ceiling notwithstanding. Not more than men in similar roles are. Something about being in that kind of position can favour people who are rather self-interested.

It's difficult to speak to people's personal experiences, since there is no real way to evaluate them or see how common similar things are in many cases. FWIW I tend to think many feminists can be over-ready to interpret issues as sexism when that's not particularly clear, so it might make sense that they are more likely to say that is happening than agree to other scenarios. .

You have gone to incredible lengths to skip over the core of my point which is

*Too many white women including those who identify as feminists minimise BAME women’s claims of racism.”

Not only academics.
Not only businesswomen.

If you want to ignore my point then don’t bother posting anymore honestly.

You are literally doing to me what I’m saying is a problem and you don’t even realise it.

Keep reading the rest of the thread, CloudyVanilla. There are lots of interesting perspectives on the topic.

Ayishat Akanbi shares some of hers in this interview -

@Justhadathought but there are literal black women saying this is there experience with feminists, you can't just say it doesn't happen because you think it doesn't happen!

I'd just like to add I obviously am aware that not all feminists are like that, but I do agree with the poster that said the OP is being treated with the usual arguments against feminist ideology like NAMALT.

I can see definite denial of the issue without any evidence to say it doesn't happen.