Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

@ValancyRedfern

I think that BLM UK has been thoroughly infiltrated by white Middle class socialist worker types. They had a massive anti-Jewish twitter rant the other day which didn't seem to fit with the priorities of the average protestor. I feel like the 'momentum' of the movement is being taken advantage of by people with very specific aims which don't have much to do with black lives mattering.

I sort of knew that it would happen, but it's a real shame to see it take place though.

You actually have people in Europe, North America etc who believe that the reason top companies are run by mainly white men is because they’re the best at it.

Yes they definitely think they are naturally superior and the more of them there are, the more they will continue to think they are the default.

They also think they invented absolutely everything which is why it’s so poor that huge chunks are omitted from history learned at school. For instance we learned zilch about Empire and colonisation which then enables white people to say things like “if “they” don’t like it “they” can go home” or to wash our hands of anything going on in the US

@missyoumuch

Wait...it seems it’s only BLM UK that’s advocating Marxism? And not the original movement that came from the US? Is this correct?

I don't think so. The US BLM holds the same aims and objectives as BLM UK don't they?

What's going on in Seattle at the moment with CHOP/CHAZ links in with the ethos of BLM and a founder member Patrisse Cullorsapparently described herself as a "trained Marxist".

I'm not sure the Black Lives Matter movement really is one unified movement any more than Feminism is one unified movement:

blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

BLM’s #WhatMatters2020 will focus on issues concerning racial injustice, police brutality, criminal justice reform, Black immigration, economic injustice, LGBTQIA+ and human rights, environmental injustice, access to healthcare, access to quality education, and voting rights and suppression.

This initiative will inspire and motivate people to ask themselves and their candidates are you really addressing What Matters in 2020?

www.facebook.com/BLMUK/

"All forms of oppression are interrelated, you cannot be for Black lives if you do not emphatically support the cause for Black queer lives, Black trans lives, the lives of Black women and so on."

BUT

www.blacklivesmatter.uk/

*IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR VISITORS:

WE ARE NOT AFFILIATED TO THE ACTIVIST COALITION USING:

Twitter @ukblm

Instagram @blmuk

We DO NOT have a gofundme page. They do.

THE UKBLM COALITION DO NOT HAVE AN OFFICIAL WEBSITE TO DIRECT YOU TO.

For information on BLM protest you need to contact @ukblm or other BLM coalitions, groups to preferred area directly.

@Puppymummy20

All those saying which Black women should we listen to, they don’t all agree on everything, are presumably fine when men ask which women they should listen to, they don’t all agree on everything.

I am also gobsmacked at the posters here who are using well-known tactics of anti-feminist denial (not all men/loads of women aren’t feminists/there’s nothing we can do about it anyway, etc etc) but aiming them at race. If systemic patriarchy exists why is it so hard to believe that systemic white supremacy does too?

There are plenty of women who disagree with or are skeptical about the assertion of systemic patriarchy, or the wage gap, or that the only way to approach the issue of underrepresentation of women is to have quotas / all women shortlists etc. None of those perspectives stop them from agreeing on certain fundamentals about women's rights and protections. And they can lend their support to various feminist causes or not depending on their viewpoint.

Some black people have a specific 'anti-racism' viewpoint i.e. they assert systemic racism is deeply entrenched, some might even say white people are inherently racist or only white people can be racist, any and all differences in outcome between white and black populations is solely or predominantly due to this systemic racism, the only way to deal with racism is through things like affirmative action and so on.

Other black people take a very different viewpoint - they might be skeptical about assertions of systemic racism or feel like there's not enough clarity on how systemic racism is established and perpetuates itself, thereby making it difficult to know how it could be resolved. They might deeply resent things like affirmative action as they feel it is patronising to black people and other minorities and undermines such communities in the long-term. They view disparities between different racial and ethnic groups to be due to a variety of issues, not just racism - there could be cultural and economic factors also at play. And so on.

However, when people usually say that white people should listen or centre the voices of black people, they almost always mean black people who are of the first kind of viewpoint. There is an unusual silence around acknowledging the second type of viewpoint, because it appears to be diametrically opposed to the first one.

I would love to see a panel discussion between different black people with all these different viewpoints. I want to see a discussion and debate of the various angles and approaches. I have not been able to find one, but if it does exist, I'd be grateful if anyone could point me to it.

When I've listened to black people who have the second type of viewpoint, they mention that those with the first kind of viewpoint are unwilling to discuss and debate these ideas with them. I think those of us who are not black, could learn a lot from these sort of discussions but they either aren't taking place or not being shown in the mainstream media.

Although it doesn't discuss feminism, I think this article is really good nuanced discussion on BLM and race in the UK, which is relevant to a lot of the points made in this thread. unherd.com/2020/06/facts-vs-feelings-in-the-blm-debate/

All those saying which Black women should we listen to, they don’t all agree on everything, are presumably fine when men ask which women they should listen to, they don’t all agree on everything

I would be totally fine with this and actually I would never tell a man that he needs to "listen to women". I would argue my point and hope that I might be able to influence them in some way. If I couldn't I would shrug my shoulders and move on. I have no desire to force another person to believe what I believe. I am happy to listen to anyone but if what you are saying is nonsense I will disagree regardless of your identity. I honestly don't know how people can tolerate the idea that people are only listening to them because they are a woman or a minority. I find the idea totally patronising.

There are plenty of women who disagree with or are skeptical about the assertion of systemic patriarchy, or the wage gap, or that the only way to approach the issue of underrepresentation of women is to have quotas / all women shortlists etc. None of those perspectives stop them from agreeing on certain fundamentals about women's rights and protections

Exactly this.

@Signalbox

Well it entirely depends on the context doesn't it.

When debating with colleagues about the best way to tackle a project, or debating with friends about Brexit I want to be listened to because I'm a person and that's how debate works. But not because I'm a woman or 'Asian'.

However if my company are asking for ideas on how to encourage more women to apply for management positions or get more people of colour into our industry or even something trivial like where to put the sinks in the remodelled women's bathroom damn well I want to be listened to because I'm a woman and a person of colour. Because I'm the one with some insight into what puts me and people like me off these things or because I'm the one that's going to be using the services provided or facilities being changed. So of course they should listen to me on those things.

Well it entirely depends on the context doesn't it

I agree that everything depends on context. And in a work based scenario it's definitely great to have a diverse range of opinions and backgrounds. But if a bathroom were being remodelled at work I might ask the women using that facility what they thought. However, not all women (sorry) have the same ideas on bathroom design and there would inevitably end up being a range of ideas some of which would be good and some not so good. I might then have difficulty in deciding which women to listen to and I might end up asking a plumber (who also happens to be male) who might tell me that some of the women's ideas are not particularly practical. Do I ignore the plumber because he is male?

It seems to me that when white women are being told to "listen to black women", what we are actually being told is to only listen to black women with a specific political outlook. It is a political statement as far as I am concerned and I don't agree with it.

When I say to men "listen to women" what I mean is take on board what they are saying, believe their experiences. Not that they have to shut up and take on the woman's opinion

For those saying they want to hear diverse black voices, do you not also acknowledge that we tend to hold an element of seeking out voices that validate our own? I find whiteness tends to centre BAME voices that echo their own thoughts, almost as a way of saying 'Hah! One of you agrees with me, therefore I'm right.' It has been used as a means to divide BAME voices and pit them against each other.

I can certainly say that as a Muslim woman who wears a hijab, it is very difficult to have my voice heard in white feminist circles. But my Muslim friends who advocate for removing the hijab (they're perfectly entitled to their view, of course) are lauded and given wide platforms, and I do suspect it is because they are saying exactly what white audiences want to hear.

I'd describe myself as working class and I've often found feminist forums and bits I've read to be very unrelateable. At university the women who belonged to feminist societies were universally affluent white middle class women and they did not speak for me at all.

The idea that most women can help other women by mentoring them and promoting them is very middle class. (Or even upper middle class).

For those saying they want to hear diverse black voices, do you not also acknowledge that we tend to hold an element of seeking out voices that validate our own? I find whiteness tends to centre BAME voices that echo their own thoughts, almost as a way of saying 'Hah! One of you agrees with me, therefore I'm right.' It has been used as a means to divide BAME voices and pit them against each other.

I absolutely agree with this and see it all the time. I don’t blame whites who do that because it is what they’re comfortable with and what the system has made sure that they are comfortable with and people don’t like being uncomfortable. Usually, the very minorities that echo them are usually ignorant of their own history and believe what society tells them about their own people.

I’d happily debate those types. I often notice with some of the debates I’ve seen, if you ask a logical and direct question that they don’t expect to be asked, they repeat their previous points and deflect from what they’ve been asked, hoping people will forget about it or they can run the clock down so they don’t have to answer.

A lot of history ignores the contributions of minorities to the point that it seems they have not contributed to society so there is this unsaid sense that they don’t deserve equality and equity or should be grateful because there are worse places they can be while ignoring the issues they face in the country they’re in.

The idea that anyone who has a university education, or who has taken the trouble to educate themselves beyond their parents' level of education, and who has, as a result, become confident and articulate, must be privileged and 'middle class' is really quite prejudiced and patronising in itself.

It suggests that working class people are not able to articulate any arguments for themselves, or see a wider political picture?

The terms working and middle class are so over-used as ways of dismissing the arguments of those who one disagrees with; and they mean different things to different people.

I absolutely agree with this and see it all the time. I don’t blame whites who do that because it is what they’re comfortable with and what the system has made sure that they are comfortable with and people don’t like being uncomfortable. Usually, the very minorities that echo them are usually ignorant of their own history and believe what society tells them about their own people

I’d happily debate those types. I often notice with some of the debates I’ve seen, if you ask a logical and direct question that they don’t expect to be asked, they repeat their previous points and deflect from what they’ve been asked, hoping people will forget about it or they can run the clock down so they don’t have to answer

Everyone tends to do that, though, to reinforce their own world view - just like you are doing now, with the total assumption of being correct and righteous. Since when did it become appropriate to refer to a whole group of people as 'whites'? If I referred to 'blacks' would that be considered acceptable to you?

If you think you can come on this board and have every agree with you and thus deliver an unchallenging safe space then you'll find you are wrong in that assumption. Anyone who disagrees with your exact stance is a 'type'? Really?

I can certainly say that as a Muslim woman who wears a hijab, it is very difficult to have my voice heard in white feminist circles. But my Muslim friends who advocate for removing the hijab (they're perfectly entitled to their view, of course) are lauded and given wide platforms, and I do suspect it is because they are saying exactly what white audiences want to hear

You are making some pretty sweeping generalisations about white feminists there? Mind you, what if you are white and don't call yourself a feminist. Have you had a better reception there?

Lots of religions wear head coverings, including some Christian groups. I used to wear one myself, but not when I was expected to, but when I chose to and it meant something to me as a symbol of submission to God's will.....not man's.

Lumping all women if any colour together seems a bit bigoted to me.

If someone said "all black women.... blah blah blah" would that not wind you up a teensy bit OP?

Everyone suffers from confirmation bias towards their existing beliefs, no reason why issues specific to BAME women would be different.

I wonder if perhaps places like MN could be fertile grounds for overcoming it. In linguistically's hijab scenario, a woman who thinks the hijab is oppressive won't necessarily be open to what she's hearing if it is from one woman who wears the hijab. However, if there were a thread here with many women who wear it talking about it then lurkers will read and understand the complexities, the depths, the nuances.

For me that is how MN has educated me on other topics. Whether it be women's rights, step parenting, special needs, boundary disputes, face washes or loo brushes: a large number of women piling in with their experience, opinion and humour opens my eyes in whole new ways. Generally I have nothing to add, I just lurk and learn.

I suspect it needs a critical mass of posters posting. Of course posters will only keep posting if the threads are helpful and/or entertaining to themselves, which in turn depends on there being enough people with relevant experiences being on the same threads, which kind of puts us in a chicken and egg situation.

Lumping all women if any colour together seems a bit bigoted to me

Absolutely, and it actually reinforces racism, it doesn't break it down.

It's not really about prioritising your sec over your race IMO.
But sexism is real. And affects half the world.
Black women are part of that world.
Transwomen will be affected to.
Both these groups will of course have different issues.
White (biological) women are still affected by sexism. Don't think for a minute they are not.

Surely we women (of all sorts) should stick together 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏽‍♀️🤷🏿‍♀️

You don't see these feminist housewives ever giving a hoot about black or Asian women's issues. While they're arguing over some dude at work calling them sexy, some poor Asian woman is having her right to pick her husband taken away. Another black woman is going through GM. Just saying.

'I think if feminists can’t accept white privilege exists in the same way male privilege does, then they are living very blinkered lives.'

I think this is very true. I am a white woman. I have no idea how hard it is to not enjoy white privilege- but I do know how clearly I see the privilege that men enjoy and that plenty of wonderful men that I know don't see it.

I wonder how much I miss because of my experience . It does however make me want to be better/ understand more - I think if we all do that then the world will continue to become a fairer place.