Batten down the hatches.....

[Gingernaut]

Now r/GenderCritical has gone, Helen from Mermaids wants to know which is the most transphobic

Not sure who's going to be targetted next, but MN is winning.

[RoyalCorgi]

I think one of the reasons they don't go after Kiwi Farms (where posters are far ruder than they are on Mumsnet) is that it doesn't take advertising, so they can't put pressure on advertisers. (Other reasons, obviously, are that Kiwi Farms is mostly male, it doesn't have a high profile, and they probably don't want to draw attention to Kiwi Farms's content - Kiwi Farmers say all sorts without censorship because for some reason they don't seem to be afraid of libel suits.)

I was curious about how Kiwi Farms is funded, and it seems they rely on donations. I found this post on the site:

"There are concerted efforts to demonetize this site and punish me for hosting it. I cannot use traditional payment processors like PayPal, Stripe, Braintree, Patreon, et cetera. Donating to the site is very convoluted but is the only way to do it. The site's operating expenses exceed $1000/mo because I have to buy far more infrastructure than a traditional website in order to handle our immense complaint volume. Traditional hosting hosting are not an option for us and I have to spend a lot to keep us alive. This is done without the benefit of any parent company or sponsor. The only reason I can afford to do this is because of small dollar donors. I am unemployable because of reputational damage done in association with the site; if I could work a regular job doing IT I would and I have tried."

[BigBadVoodooHat]

I assume they leave them alone because they’re predominantly men and will have their arses handed back to them?

Exactly this. Ditto DataLounge.

They haven’t got the metaphorical balls to round on GC men in the same way.
Not to mention the blatant misogyny of finding words spoken by a woman to be 1000 times more offensive than the same words spoken by a man: see the dissonance between recent responses to JKR and John Cleese.

[BigBadVoodooHat]

they probably don't want to draw attention to Kiwi Farms's content

Yes, a very good point. You really wouldn’t want to direct attention to a KW thread about you, would you?

[justanotherneighinparadise]

@RoyalCorgi

I think one of the reasons they don't go after Kiwi Farms (where posters are far ruder than they are on Mumsnet) is that it doesn't take advertising, so they can't put pressure on advertisers. (Other reasons, obviously, are that Kiwi Farms is mostly male, it doesn't have a high profile, and they probably don't want to draw attention to Kiwi Farms's content - Kiwi Farmers say all sorts without censorship because for some reason they don't seem to be afraid of libel suits.)

I was curious about how Kiwi Farms is funded, and it seems they rely on donations. I found this post on the site:

"There are concerted efforts to demonetize this site and punish me for hosting it. I cannot use traditional payment processors like PayPal, Stripe, Braintree, Patreon, et cetera. Donating to the site is very convoluted but is the only way to do it. The site's operating expenses exceed $1000/mo because I have to buy far more infrastructure than a traditional website in order to handle our immense complaint volume. Traditional hosting hosting are not an option for us and I have to spend a lot to keep us alive. This is done without the benefit of any parent company or sponsor. The only reason I can afford to do this is because of small dollar donors. I am unemployable because of reputational damage done in association with the site; if I could work a regular job doing IT I would and I have tried."

Wow! That’s like the start of the bloody A-Team isn’t it!!!!

[JKRismyhero]

That message to Posie is utterly disgusting.

[LouHotel]

I really do worry for women like Posie because for a long time I feel there is going to be a watershed moment of where something will happen to a women or child that is so horrific that it make the entire population stand up and take note.

And or the TRA and politicians and celebrity allies will then Crowe that they didn't know ect ..ect..

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

The bloke that runs Kiwi Farms seems to be very tech savvy and has taken pretty extreme steps to protect the site. As far as I can tell. He also won't make the slightest concession to anyone - he's told law enforcement people to fuck off before. So there's no way of appealing to him to ban posters or censor posts - he won't.

Mumsnet is vulnerable, in part, because there is a fairly well-defended code of ethics that the moderators & site adhere to.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, btw! I don't agree with doxxing anyone, and certainly not the way that it's done on some other sites.

[megletthesecond]

A brief glimpse at a male dominated UK forum looks like they mostly have similar opinions to MN.

[RoyalCorgi]

Scrimpshaw - I agree about the guy being tech-savvy etc, but isn't it strange that they haven't been sued for libel? Even allowing for the fact that libel laws are a lot more relaxed in the US than they are here, you'd think that some posts meet the test. In fact, because the content is visible in the UK, I assume it would be possible to sue under English law. So I wonder again if it's a question of people not wanting to draw attention to the content.

[WanderinWomb]

If one tries to sue the Farms it brings more attention and more doxxing. I understand why most wont touch them.
Some will though
Two TRAs from TransLifeline turned up at owner's mother home with a knife a few years ago. Much interesting reading about that event.

The place is toxic but must give kudos to the research ability. It's remarkable.

I'd love the TRAs to complain about Datalounge and LipstickAlley , they just won't though. Must keep image that no one disagrees with them but us 'Karens'. It's a lie and sunlight is needed to expose that lie.

[justanotherneighinparadise]

@WanderinWomb

If one tries to sue the Farms it brings more attention and more doxxing. I understand why most wont touch them.
Some will though
Two TRAs from TransLifeline turned up at owner's mother home with a knife a few years ago. Much interesting reading about that event.

The place is toxic but must give kudos to the research ability. It's remarkable.

I'd love the TRAs to complain about Datalounge and LipstickAlley , they just won't though. Must keep image that no one disagrees with them but us 'Karens'. It's a lie and sunlight is needed to expose that lie.

My god!!!!

[CaveMum]

I’m in a number of private GC Facebook groups too and our numbers are swelling In recent weeks. I have also spoken to many friends who are in agreement with the GC position but, for now, are afraid to speak publicly due to their jobs (nurses, teachers, solicitors, etc). We are legion.

Oh and this is my current Twitter/Facebook profile pic

[CaveMum]

Gah, did that post? If not, trying again (though losing some of the drama)

[MrsNoah2020]

Kiwi Farms is also protected by being in NZ. Though you can sue for defamation in NZ as a foreigner, the sheer practicalities of running a civil case there if you are, say, JY or Mermaids, would be challenging and expensive. And, under NZ law, if you're an organisation (as opposed to an individual), you would have to prove that the defamatory statement caused you losses - pretty hard to do.

The other thing about suing for defamation is that the defence is usually that the statement was true, so any case would involve detailed consideration of what had been said. TRAs are unlikely to welcome that level of scrutiny.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

I shared the tweets with my very right on SIL from that poor BAME woman who was accused of 'leveraging her trauma' and transphobia for talking about her own experience of FGM. SIL has so far been highly woke and 'it's all a storm in a tea cup' in all ways, but she was livid about that, that was her step way too far. From what she said, I think she's seen all the JK Rowling stuff too and not been impressed.

She has many trans friends in her circle, none of whose views appear to be represented by the extremist political lobby groups.

[HH160bpm]

I would love to meet that woman (not H, the other one), look her in the eye and say ‘ I know what you did to your child’

I can see why you feel that way but I think it would be both cruel and pointless. Being judged is only going to increase her need to eliminate all opposing points of view.

[wrongsideofhistorymyarse]

I'm going to use Seahorses are not horses 🐎

[DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong]

Kiwi Farms is also protected by being in NZ

It’s not NZ based, in fact, I think it got banned In NZ due to hosting footage of the Christchurch shootings?

The owner is from the US and lives somewhere in Eastern Europe, I think.

As far as I know he has his own server and uses Cloudflare for security:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudflare

I’m not a member of the farms although I am partial to a lurk every now and again, same with Lipstick Alley, Piston Heads and Datalounge, which are similarly outspoken, gossip-heavy places (aimed at different interest groups/demographics)

Null, the owner of the farms once popped over here for a wave at us Mumsnetters. The post got deleted, iirc, not because it said anything awful but because it was on a thread about a certain serial litigant who doesn’t need any extra motivations.

I notice someone tried to start a KF thread disparaging Mumsnetters but it didn’t take off, we aren’t really very interesting, not compared to their usual interests! Their thread about the Mumsnet NSPCC webchat is pretty funny though (the one that the NSPCC refused to participate in when all the advance-questions were about safeguarding breaches in trans inclusion policies).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3353297-did-the-webchat-with-the-NSPCC-go-ahead

[Al1Langdownthecleghole]

I've just seen this article dated yesterday 30th June, which would appear to give the other narrative. I'm not a DT subscriber so I can't tell if the two articles were presented as different viewpoints, or if it just a coincidence. It's still a relief to see transgender ideology being examined though.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/30/niche-transgender-ideology-corrosive-society-says-report/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1593610478

[Siablue]

That message sent to Posie Perker is horrific. Whoever sent that is dangerous. I hope there is a way of catching them,

The Kiwi Farms guy sounds like he gives zero fucks. I read the Mermaids thread on there. Good grief there is no way Susie Green would want anyone to read that. The do have quite an evidence trail and do not mince their words.

[MoleSmokes]

MrsNoah2020 and AverySuitableGirl

I asked MumsnetHQ detailed questions about data security (past and present) and what, if any, personal info about Premium Members would be held by Mumsnet or accessible by Mumsnet staff.

The answers from Justine Mumsnet are in this thread, which goes into painstaking detail. Certainly enough to reassure me that there is no more risk than registering as an anonymous member with an anonymous email address in the first place:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3878378-Premium-Membership-Privacy-and-Data-Protection-MNHQ-please-clarify

[MoleSmokes]

Another thought . . . if we are expecting an influx of new members they might not spot this very important info, even though it is pinned at the top of the Board Index:

Mumsnet moderation principles for discussions around gender identity and sex

[MrsNoah2020]

[quote MoleSmokes]MrsNoah2020 and AverySuitableGirl

I asked MumsnetHQ detailed questions about data security (past and present) and what, if any, personal info about Premium Members would be held by Mumsnet or accessible by Mumsnet staff.

The answers from Justine Mumsnet are in this thread, which goes into painstaking detail. Certainly enough to reassure me that there is no more risk than registering as an anonymous member with an anonymous email address in the first place:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3878378-Premium-Membership-Privacy-and-Data-Protection-MNHQ-please-clarify[/quote]
Your questions were great, but I don't know how you can conclude from Justine's answers that there is no more risk than registering as an anonymous member with an anonymous email address in the first place. Justine admits that 'senior' members of her team will be able to link MN users to their Stripe (the payment mechanism) data, including name and postcode. That is a hell of a difference from now, when no one in MNHQ has any idea of my identity.

To believe that there is no risk in subscribing, I would have to believe that MN will be effective at ensuring that any of their employees with access to my data can be trusted with it. I do not believe that. MN has repeatedly been blasé about personal data, and dismissive of users' concerns. I am not going to put my privacy and my job (given my GC views) on the line to give MN money. If they want my money, they need to do what thousands of other websites, blogs, podcasts etc do, and allow me to donate anonymously.

[MrsNoah2020]

[quote DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong]Kiwi Farms is also protected by being in NZ

It’s not NZ based, in fact, I think it got banned In NZ due to hosting footage of the Christchurch shootings?

The owner is from the US and lives somewhere in Eastern Europe, I think.

As far as I know he has his own server and uses Cloudflare for security:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudflare

I’m not a member of the farms although I am partial to a lurk every now and again, same with Lipstick Alley, Piston Heads and Datalounge, which are similarly outspoken, gossip-heavy places (aimed at different interest groups/demographics)

Null, the owner of the farms once popped over here for a wave at us Mumsnetters. The post got deleted, iirc, not because it said anything awful but because it was on a thread about a certain serial litigant who doesn’t need any extra motivations.

I notice someone tried to start a KF thread disparaging Mumsnetters but it didn’t take off, we aren’t really very interesting, not compared to their usual interests! Their thread about the Mumsnet NSPCC webchat is pretty funny though (the one that the NSPCC refused to participate in when all the advance-questions were about safeguarding breaches in trans inclusion policies).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3353297-did-the-webchat-with-the-NSPCC-go-ahead[/quote]
Ah, I must be mis-remembering the NZ ban. I knew the 'Kiwi' bit in their name had nothing to do with NZ, but I thought there was a NZ link.