Stephen King retweets JKR

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

A Dworkin quote.

Anyhoo. Weird how adamant you are to avoid biology. Sports?

@JemimaShore

and yet a grandmother WAS sent to a mens jail.

I'd love to know the details? Why? And surely it was a mistake?

A big difference between a mistake, and knowingly sending male sex offenders into women's prisons.

This argument has now reached such ridiculous proportions that a potential Leader of the Opposition publicly argued that male paedophiles should be housed in women's prisons if they say they identify as women. You couldn't make it up.

She was sent because she was on HRT.

www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article222363520.html

That article states she was sent to male holding for 10 hours, and it was ruled unlawful. So, a mistake, and unlawful.

So anyway, back to male sex offenders being housed in women's prisons because they identify as women - A Good Idea, or a Bad Idea?

I'd say Bad.

That's ridiculous.

It says they had overwhelming evidence she was a woman after they strip searched her.

How could they possibly tell?

And then it says she was locked up with leering men for ten hours. Can you imagine? Not able to escape. Totally at any one of those men's mercy, with the authorities colluding.

Anyway, I'm glad she is suing. She deserves justice

She does, 7Days

You want to ignore biology because someone made a really fucking weird mistake subsequently deemed unlawful? Say what? This is the reason why men have to be allowed in the female estate?

It kind of argues the opposite diesnt it prolefeed?
It was a horrible frightening experience for that woman, being locked in with at the very least Quite Bad Men.
It shouldn't be allowed.
That is kinda our point Kealey

Strewth a powerful, vocal, articulate woman like JK Rowling, who refuses to be cancelled, sure does bring out the raging misogynists.

Does anyone know if HQ is actually considering the 90 day rule?

so hannah Gadsby and grace petrie who are lifelong butches and GNC women only had it happen after 2010-2015? not much on LGBT history are you?

Transactivism has only been a thing since earliest 2010? I could have sworn there was an American website named after a nasty slur for disobedient women which is banned on this site, which talks about Sandy Stone being shut out of feminist spaces in the mid 70s? I could have sworn we passed the Gender Recognition Act here in 2004? I could have sworn that apparently a black trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall, according to transactivists?

and yet a grandmother WAS sent to a mens jail. natal women ARE harassed if they don't look female enough, Grace petrie, Hannah Gadsby have both spoken out about their encounters around this.

A woman gets wrongly classified as a man because she's taking HRT and there are lots of men who take female hormones.

Butch women get mistaken for men and harassed because of it. (I didn't know who Grace Petrie and Hannah Gadsby were, but having looked at some pictures, neither of them look like men, so you might need some better examples).

So because there are men who will impersonate women in order to gain some sort of advantage means that occasionally some women are mistaken for men impersonating women. And the solution to this is letting men into women's spaces?

Does anyone know if HQ is actually considering the 90 day rule?

Nope but I'm hopeful they do.

I'm also hoping that @MNHQ realise that when someone takes the username of a person whose known for being GC on Twitter and accuse them of being a child rapist in print for having a relationship with someone over the age of consent is committing libel and by default so is MN by letting those remarks stand.

A 24 hour rule would be something, I think.

Does anyone know if HQ is actually considering the 90 day rule?

Not officially, I suggested it, and someone suggested a variation of it after the Glinner thread invasion e.g. could be a week, and tagged @MichaelMumsnet in the discussion. It wouldn’t stop those disruptions from people who are willing to play the long game, but would certainly stop derailing like here.

I started a thread earlier in site stuff as I wasn’t sure if it had been raised as a discussion point. Might be worth tagging Justine?

I'd love to hear it also but the silence is deafening...

No-one should put up with male violence but neither should it be expected that the solution is that women should act as a shield for men against it, especially when those men show no solidarity or empathy women's experiences or do anything to tackle the issue at hand.

Agreed. To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that violence is a good thing. Not from anyone. Not against natal women, not against trans women. Not against trans men, or anyone else either. I was just pointing out that it happens, has been happening for millennia, & seems to be rather more central to the global experience of womanhood than lipstick or high heels. Indeed, it seems to be just about the defining feature of womanhood. Possibly alongside being culturally expected to pick up the majority of the domestic duties.

@SisyphusAndTheRockOfUntidiness

I'd love to hear it also but the silence is deafening...

No-one should put up with male violence but neither should it be expected that the solution is that women should act as a shield for men against it, especially when those men show no solidarity or empathy women's experiences or do anything to tackle the issue at hand.

Agreed. To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that violence is a good thing. Not from anyone. Not against natal women, not against trans women. Not against trans men, or anyone else either. I was just pointing out that it happens, has been happening for millennia, & seems to be rather more central to the global experience of womanhood than lipstick or high heels. Indeed, it seems to be just about the defining feature of womanhood. Possibly alongside being culturally expected to pick up the majority of the domestic duties.

I didn't think you were suggesting that at all.

In fact I thought your comment very insightful in reaction to my post.

The reality is women do "suck up" a hell of a lot of crap in every day life.

Violence is the sharp end of a shitty stick, but the every day grind of "wife work" can also be tortuous.

Lockdown has demonstrated this very clearly and from an anecdotal perspective and I'd welcome proper studies on it.

Couples both working from home yet the woman has to do her job, plus home schooling (not just the lessons but the planning) and the usual 80% of household chores.

Single parents are in a worse place.

She's frazzled and even though she's working past midnight to get her "work" done is still falling behind and knows she's in line for the "cuts" that are inevitable because she hasn't "risen to the challenge" the same way her single/married male counterparts have because they just have to focus on their job (rather than the job plus being a teacher, cook, cleaner etc).

I think we do have a tendency to suffer in silence because we know no one is coming to shield us and thus doing so, sometimes is the only dignity left.

I didn't think you were suggesting that at all. But I would really hate for anyone else to get the wrong end of the stick.

@Kantastic

but GNC women shouldn't have to use a third space. the only reason they would is because people like YOU would harass them*

what a tedious little troll you are. No, GNC women shouldn't have to use a third space. GNC women look like women, not like men.

I was accepting your premise that some women look enough like men to frighten other women and pointing out to you that actual women don't like frightening people. Actual women who regularly frighten or scare other women with their presence in female changing rooms would probably be very happy to have a third space available.

Feels like I'm talking to a goldfish honestly. Clownfish? Anyway, I'm done. there's no point in conversing with someone who appears to have the reasoning skills of a bot from five years ago.

This exactly. I was thinking about this recently after watching a sci fi program where two people switched bodies.

If by some weird event I happened to wake up tomorrow and find I'd switched bodies with DP, I would probably feel like I'm in the wrong body, having been used to a female one all these years. I guess I would still feel like I should be female. I would probably feel very uncomfortable going in the men's.

What I wouldn't do is continue to use the women's toilets and changing rooms, because having been a woman I know how disturbing my new male bodied presence would be to other women.

If trans women really understood what it felt like to be a woman, then surely they would feel similar?

Apologies if the topic has moved on and maybe this has already been shared earlier in the thread, but it made me laugh so much ....

twitter.com/uh_oh/status/1277602916229173251?s=19

Exactly. Just the other day I came across the school prayer we had to learn by heart at my girls' only junior school, which asks the Lord to help us to be truthful, pure, obedient, faithful, kind and gentle.
I wonder if boys's schools taught their pupils these same values? I doubt it.
There's nothing more "unwomanly" than barging in where you are not wanted, where you might make others uncomfortable.

Those are actually traditional British values and even if they are now rather old-fashioned and we don't have to learn prayers off by heart, yet still they are values passed on from mothers of an older generation to their daughters and granddaughters.

They are basically good values. But they need to be balanced, especially in this day and age where men are less chivalrous, with values such as resilience, self-protection, determination, standing up for oneself (especially with dignity, like JKR!) and courage.

You can recognise maleness by any display of entitlement when it comes to female spaces. If he really "felt like a woman" he wouldn't do it. H wouldn't want to disturb other women. He'd say "excuse me" and back out, just like all decent men do.

^^ this was in reply to utini's rhetorical question:
If trans women really understood what it felt like to be a woman, then surely they would feel similar?

Derigeour 2 great posts

[quote NonnyMouse1337]Apologies if the topic has moved on and maybe this has already been shared earlier in the thread, but it made me laugh so much ....

twitter.com/uh_oh/status/1277602916229173251?s=19[/quote]
Nonny that's hilarious!

They are basically good values. But they need to be balanced, especially in this day and age where men are less chivalrous, with values such as resilience, self-protection, determination, standing up for oneself (especially with dignity, like JKR!) and courage

That is an excellent post Lamaha

[quote Benny10]@SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito

I looked through that and yes there are definitely people who are trans who are predatory and maybe even a tiny amount of predators who would pretend to be trans to get access to victims. But you can't paint them all with the same brush[/quote]
But the issue is that that they can.
How many of the tiny amount would you say is acceptable?
How many women and girls (the real biological kind) would you be prepared to offer up as collateral.
Would you be prepared for this collateral to include your mother/sister/wife/daughter/niece?
Would you sleep with a transwoman - a straight yes or no - and if not why not?